tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post110804069589065593..comments2023-09-22T12:40:26.587-04:00Comments on Da'as Hedyot: Leaving It BehindThe Hedyothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-64916557927614367422007-05-31T23:57:00.000-04:002007-05-31T23:57:00.000-04:00A person who is properly nurtured through the diff...A person who is properly nurtured through the difficult learning process until they can learn to appreciate Torah and Mitzvos on their own, has been given the opportunity<BR/><BR/> When damage is done by parents or teachers who have a hard time with questions to which they do not know the answer, or who do not know how to deal with a difficult child or teen, deep negativity results and the opportunity often has been stripped from this person.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-39381635740461274442007-05-31T14:36:00.000-04:002007-05-31T14:36:00.000-04:00> ...the value of the ways of the Torah in truth a...<I>> ...the value of the ways of the Torah in truth and beauty are not to be underestimated by someone who has not had the proper opportunity to appreciate them.</I><BR/><BR/>And what, to your mind, would be the criteria to determine if one "had the proper opportunity to appreciate them"?<BR/><BR/>Or is it so self evident, that by definition, if a person doesn't appreciate them, then they must not have had that opportunity?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-38883565564482725212007-05-31T13:32:00.000-04:002007-05-31T13:32:00.000-04:00There is nothing circular about my argument and I ...There is nothing circular about my argument and I am not arguing.<BR/><BR/>I am not talking about the truth of the Torah versus Hinduism. I am simply claiming that the <I>value</I> of the ways of the Torah in truth and beauty are not to be underestimated by someone who has not had the proper opportunity to appreciate them. <BR/><BR/>I have read posts from GH and yes I wish he had met the right people too, at the time that he was struggling with his beliefs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-6998039948306345552007-05-31T09:32:00.000-04:002007-05-31T09:32:00.000-04:00I'm glad we didn't have to waste too much time bef...I'm glad we didn't have to waste too much time before uncovering the inconsistency and circular reasoning of your position.<BR/><BR/>I'm not going to get into it here, but just read the archives of GH to see how little logical sense you're making.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-4943135834193586312007-05-31T07:53:00.000-04:002007-05-31T07:53:00.000-04:00One does not have to try every single religion to ...One does not have to try every single religion to know which ones make sense and which ones don't.(even though there are peope who have) Even if Hinduism felt good that wouldn't make it right. The fact that the Torah is true AND brings beauty to life is what counts. Let me mention though that nobody's life - religious or not - can be perfect bliss because the purpose of this life is not meant to be. The path of the Torah is simply the best avenue to take because it guides us, enriches us, and protects us from wavering into dangerous territory.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-76991196435334787772007-05-30T22:45:00.000-04:002007-05-30T22:45:00.000-04:00Have you given Islam, Christianity, or Hinduism a ...Have you given Islam, Christianity, or Hinduism a fair chance? No? Don't tell me that "it doesn't work for you" because according to you that just means that you obviously haven't really been exposed to how wonderful that life can be.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-53607069455306442792007-05-30T18:49:00.000-04:002007-05-30T18:49:00.000-04:00I'm sorry that you misunderstood me. I fully under...I'm sorry that you misunderstood me. I fully understand a person who leaves for emotional reasons and nobody <I>must</I> enjoy anything. I understand a thing or two about human nature and I understand that when people leave Yiddishkeit, it is because they were never given the opportunity to appreciate its beauty. I too sat in yeshiva and wondered how I would ever last through Seder. I too would not want anyone to tell me that I can't go mixed skating or the like. B"H I outgrew the difficult adolescent years and landed in a Yeshiva in Israel where for some inexpicable reason my eyes were suddenly opened to the joy of learning. If someone tells me "it doesn't work for me" I would say that they haven't given it a fare chance. Living in an environment where a person is made to feel that they are being forced to daven and learn is not called a fare chance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-59774778109633116052007-05-30T09:10:00.000-04:002007-05-30T09:10:00.000-04:00> I feel sorry for anyone who leaves frumkeit beca...<I>> I feel sorry for anyone who leaves frumkeit because of emotional issues.....<BR/>There is almost no greater emotional joy I feel as when I make kiddush... </I><BR/><BR/>You're against leaving because of emotional reasons, yet your whole rationale for being religious is because of those same emotional bases! Kind of inconsistent, don't you think?<BR/><BR/>And it's just plain unfair. just because you enjoy something means that other people have to enjoy it too?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-69213794150507469402007-05-30T00:40:00.000-04:002007-05-30T00:40:00.000-04:00I skimmed through this blog but would like to comm...I skimmed through this blog but would like to comment that I feel sorry for anyone who leaves frumkeit because of emotional issues. Having come from a very non-sheltered backround (gone to movies, ball games had non-jewish friends ect.)I believe I can clearly see both sides. There is almost no greater emotional joy I feel as when I make kiddush on Yom Tov and say the words "Asher bochar bonu Mikol Am V'Romimonu Mi'kol Loshon, V'kidishonu B'mitzvosav". The world outside frumkeit can be enjoyable...sometimes, but true joy comes from inner peace and that can only be attained for a Jew through Torah. If Judaism seems boring, ritualistic, creating guilt feelings ect. it is because those transmitting are not being honest about their own feelings or cannot connect with someone on a different level. A vibrant enthusiastic Rebbie will spill over to his students and they will quickly forget any doubts that they had.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1110221431403104132005-03-07T13:50:00.000-05:002005-03-07T13:50:00.000-05:00BS"D
You have a wonderfully honest & keen post! K...BS"D<br />You have a wonderfully honest & keen post! Kol ha-kavod for listening to your Self & standing in your truth. It isn't easy when the voices of so many are louder than what's inside...<br />I'm going to send this link along to a friend who is in the same boast as you, but less settled. We should be allowed, as Jews, to be frum AND to think for ourselves - it's a very old minhag :)<br />May you go from strength to strength,<br />AvielSoferethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05006437033470017124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1109051534353553072005-02-22T00:52:00.000-05:002005-02-22T00:52:00.000-05:00What puzzles and saddens me is that even "burn out...What puzzles and saddens me is that even "burn outs" from the "frum" world continue to view religiousness as black or white. The view seems to be that you're either in for a penny, in for a pound - or not, and nothing in between. As someone that sends my kids to a MO school (after starting them in public school), davens in a conservative shul but often visits the "old world" shul to take in the yiddish of the kind (OK, some are gruffy) 80+ year old guys that make their minions, I find it incredible that many folks don't see how the broad tapestry of religious Judaism offers many, many choices to express oneself wherever you are on Jacob's Ladder at this point.<br /><br />God wants to hear from you, and He doesn't care whether the phone booth that you call in your prayers from says "Orthodox", "Conservative", "Reform", or "hippy renewal havurah". Really.<br /><br />Kol tuv!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108932456383288332005-02-20T15:47:00.000-05:002005-02-20T15:47:00.000-05:00To do what feels good...those Jewish sages were on...To do what feels good...those Jewish sages were onto something when they chose the word apikores<br />for unbelievers, heretics, and similar unsavory characters.<br /><br />It seems that it is derived from the name of the Greek philosopher, Epicurus. His philosophy has been expressed as eat drink and be merry for tomorrow I shall die.<br /><br />They were hedonists, believing that pleasure was good and pain was evil, and that the right thing to do was always what produced the greatest pleasure and the least pain...<br /><br />This is the Jewish belief that when all is said and done (most of the time)we leave the proper path because we wanna party...or we don't want the struggle..<br /><br />He also developed the idea that if there is evil there can be no G-d So the fact that you were messed over and lied to and suffered in life would be enough of a reason from that point of view to deny G-d..of course Judaism would say among other things that we are puny creatures not knowing the mind of G-d..<br /><br />It is always better to be l'teyavon -to know that you are following pleasure or avoiding pain than to create reasons why it is not true..<br /><br />I wish you luck in achieving JOY in your life not pleasure..but Joy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108506422583138402005-02-15T17:27:00.000-05:002005-02-15T17:27:00.000-05:00Compare:
1. the yetzer hara convincing us to sin...Compare:<br /><br /><I> 1. the yetzer hara convincing us to sin; giving in to our base impulses<br /></I>and <br /><br /><I> 1. Frustration that I was not allowed to pursue activities and experiences which were enjoyable and meaningful to myself.<br /></I>They could certainly be seen as equivalent, from a frum point of view.J.D. and M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03783113045716263640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108455257892125282005-02-15T03:14:00.000-05:002005-02-15T03:14:00.000-05:00Good post.
Don’t even bother trying to make dist...Good post. <br /><br />Don’t even bother trying to make distinctions between the emotional and the rational. Trying to discern one from the other to figure out how things turned out is futile. I’ve been frei for 16 years and still have no answer as to which came first or why. At some point, the emotional and the rational begin to operate in synch, but it isn’t until one or the other stops working that you know you are no longer attached to it. <br /><br />I avoid the ad hominem attacks on other Jews who misbehave or use their power or position for personal gain. People are just people. Only that my fellow Jews claim they are more than mere mortals, and that continues to bother me. As Rav Steinsaltz said “The most difficult thing about Judaism is Jews.” Living up to lofty ideals is nice but also unrealistic for many, so I avoid making my decisions based on the actions of others. <br /><br />Personally, the biggest factor was the indifference to individual wants and desires. Some of those are intellectual and artistic. The fact that there are different classes among Jews is not unusual at all and doesn’t bother me in the least. Some of the families we envy because of wealth and fame have some real problems that they carefully hide from the public view. Being 2nd or 3rd class was never an issue, besides they told me the seeking kavod was meaningless. They were right. <br /><br />The reasons we leave Yiddishkeit are as varied or conflicted as our personalities. I tend to appear rational and use the rational argument to support my leaving, because the rational part can be spoken clearly and expressed to another in question and answer. The emotional side of the matter, which came from and reinforced the rational (and vice versa) is a bit harder to express to another person they a) cannot associate or b) associate but not as strongly. Either way, you come away with not being able to say what you want to say using only the emotional argument. <br /><br />The distinctions we make between emotion and intellect are misguided. The science does not support such differentiations. Both are strong and concurrent factors in decision making and processing information, and one is no less important than the other. For good reading on this idea, read Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman (ISBN 0-553-37506-7).<br /><br />My father wanted me to be a talmid chochom. Which Jewish parent doesn’t? The mistake was that HIS desire for me, coupled with the kehillas desires for everyone, did not match what I wanted for myself, which was to be just like my father, a skilled tradesman who did good and honest work, came home tired, and tinkered in his workshop for relaxation. So my entire childhood I was sheltered from the life that was going on inside my own home! As some would say “Se pahst nit far a Yid.” Why? What shame would there be in striving to be an honest man doing an honest day’s work? Why must every Jew become a Gadol? Part of the drive for perfection is what drives us away. The standard barely tolerates those who can’t attain it. <br /><br />There are three groups of Jews: the ‘who’s who’, the ‘who’s that’, and the ‘who cares’.Shlomo Leib Aronovitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10407211641091145197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108323457182002232005-02-13T14:37:00.000-05:002005-02-13T14:37:00.000-05:00For all of you rebels out there who live in metro ...For all of you rebels out there who live in metro New York City. Take yourselves and your families to Central Park sometime these two weeks to see "The Gates." (link below) In "Yeshivish," we'd call this total "bitul z'man," but it's a lot of fun to walk through and it's great to see thousands of people just enjoying themselves.<br /><br />http://christojeanneclaude.net/tg.htmlIsaachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12008329980122614297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108271347007458072005-02-13T00:09:00.000-05:002005-02-13T00:09:00.000-05:00#'s 4, 8, & 10 are the ikkar. Once you have been l...#'s 4, 8, & 10 are the ikkar. Once you have been lied to and you realize it, and you discover other lies, the whole underpinnings of emunah (not in God, but in Othodox Judaism) collapse.<br /><br />After that, you are kept 'inside' by the cult-like treatment of those who try to leave and the fear it instills.<br /><br />After a while, though, the fear stops working and you're frei.<br /><br />That's why truth is so important and lying to promote yiddishkeit is so evil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108139255867302622005-02-11T11:27:00.000-05:002005-02-11T11:27:00.000-05:00"Much of it is quite intriguing, but actually, the..."<I>Much of it is quite intriguing, but actually, the simple truth is that I really don't care too much whether it's true or not.</I>"<br /><br />I do. To me, it doesn't matter if it feels good if it's not true. That's not to say it feels good, but that it wouldn't matter to me. The claims of frumkeit are bogus, and that's enough for me.<br /><br />I doubt you really feel as strongly about your not caring as you think. Imagine if you came to believe that you'd be best served in your litany of desires by become a Jehova's Witness. Considering how hard it would be for you to believe that it's true, it would be hard to swallow that you'd sacrifice your intellectual honesty on the altar of cult to attain happiness. clearly turth matters to you, at least a little.<br /><br />"<I>It never ceases to amaze me the way the "frum" community uses language ("off the derech," "burnt out," "meshumad," etc.) to pathologize anyone who entertains a slightly different way of life.</I>"<br /><br /><A HREF="http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm" REL="nofollow">Classic cult characteristic</A>. As is Daas Torah, and a slew of other reasons why Frumkeit is a cult.M-nhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14544559966559522003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108136066114016062005-02-11T10:34:00.000-05:002005-02-11T10:34:00.000-05:00It's kind of obvious, as you said, that these are ...It's kind of obvious, as you said, that these are emotional issues. People who question and then lower their observence is not a new phenomenon.<br /><br />What is new to me here, is that you don't seem to have been exposed to the idea that Hashem gave us the Torah lifestyle to make our lives happier. Both within the home and within the larger community, it is a very pleasant way of life, to me. Either someone mis-trained you, or you never experienced it yourself. Just look at the teens who go off. They're mostly not happy. As a kiruv pro once told me, they hate their parents, not G-d! In any case, find a happy family and watch what they do. <br /><br />So much of your focus seems to be on intellectual aspects of frumkeit, yet your emotional pain seems to be the operative factor here. Good luck, and good shabbos.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108132414977938122005-02-11T09:33:00.000-05:002005-02-11T09:33:00.000-05:00Shabbat shalom Hedyot & allShabbat shalom Hedyot & allIsaachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12008329980122614297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108115050379457802005-02-11T04:44:00.000-05:002005-02-11T04:44:00.000-05:00You make some very legitimate points. However, one...You make some very legitimate points. However, one should be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water, even if it's very tempting to do so at times.<br /><br />Take the dirty bath water and bury it - water your garden with it, and hopefully a beautiful flower will come up after a while.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108084233793118502005-02-10T20:10:00.000-05:002005-02-10T20:10:00.000-05:00Have you committed murder today?
No, not today.
H...<I>Have you committed murder today?<br /></I>No, not today.<br /><br /><I>Have you teamed an ox and a donkey?<br /></I>I once set up a shidduch that might count as that.<br /><br /><I>Did you sleep with another man's wife?<br /></I>In my defense, I didn't know she was married.<br /><br /><I>(please say "no," please say "no," please say "no"...)<br /></I>OK, I admit it - I've never committed such terrible sins. But once I did tie my right shoe before my left one. How can I ever live with myself?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108079200183230832005-02-10T18:46:00.000-05:002005-02-10T18:46:00.000-05:00Ahin Ahe'r with your justifications a godol told m...Ahin Ahe'r with your justifications a godol told me your gonna hell ,see ya soonAMSHINOVERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07680072149053035110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108078127995317482005-02-10T18:28:00.000-05:002005-02-10T18:28:00.000-05:00How does one go from being a fully committed Jew t...<I>How does one go from being a fully committed Jew to one who doesn't really care much about halacha or a torah life?</I>Funny thing, H, I commented on some of the things you touched on on Shtreimel's 'blog, wondering aloud if the mindset of "I've had 'bad' thoughts or done 'bad' things, therefore I'm 'bad' and either need to fight an impossible battle to become 'un-bad'" actually sows the seeds of destruction in the minds of some "frum" people.<br /><br />It never ceases to amaze me the way the "frum" community uses language ("off the derech," "burnt out," "meshumad," etc.) to pathologize anyone who entertains a slightly different way of life.<br /><br />Finally, who's to say that someone who does not follow Torah or halachah can't in his/her own way be a "fully committed Jew?" Besides, have you committed murder today? Have you teamed an ox and a donkey? Did you sleep with another man's wife? (please say "no," please say "no," please say "no"...)<br /><br />;)Isaachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12008329980122614297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1108063190918511882005-02-10T14:19:00.000-05:002005-02-10T14:19:00.000-05:00I agree with your views completely. You get alot ...I agree with your views completely. You get alot of Rabonim who try to intellectualize/guilt you into agreeing with them. And yes they might be smarter than you and the arguments and logic gets you tangled up. On their terms and turf - thats what happens. They cannot conceive of anyone being being happy or fulfilled or decent if they are not from a frum background.<br /><br />Frum does not work for everyone. Some pple get their kicks by saying the whole tehilim every day. Others are enraptured with how to check what goes into their mouth. <br /><br />Shul doesnt do it for me, never did, never will. I believe in G-d like most people on this planet , but not according to someone else's ridiculous terms and dictates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com