Comments on Da'as Hedyot: Will The Real Orthodox Judaism Please Stand Up?

controversial

2005-03-06T18:22:00.000-05:00

controversial

Whenever people write a book, play or screenplay a...

2005-03-06T18:21:00.000-05:00

Whenever people write a book, play or screenplay about anything, its inevitable that only the interesting things will get picked up.

Nobody wants to watch a movie about the drudgery of life.

Hence only the contreversial, amusing or stupid bits of any community or person getting magnified and publicised.

DH, You have a great blog, writing about real good...

2005-03-04T13:29:00.000-05:00

DH,
You have a great blog, writing about real good issues. You're getting elevated to my "Mizrach wall".

A Gut Shabbos.

Regarding "Price Above Rubies," I believe the "com...

2005-03-02T22:11:00.000-05:00

Regarding "Price Above Rubies," I believe the "community" was portrayed as flawed but generally admirable. "Sonia" (Renee Z) is victimized by nasty individuals (brother- in-law, husband) but ultimately wins the respect of the Rabbi and the community and they come to her aid. I'm afraid that in "real" life, Sonia would have been treated worse than on-screen(and a certain recent real-life case stands out as an example.) and would not have gotten within a block of the Rabbi. Perhaps Shalit does not know this, does not want to know this or does not want the world to know this.

OTOH, people who create fictional works which cast aspersions on communities (be it A C Doyle's portrayal of Mormons or Dan Brown's alternative history of the Catholic church) or ways of life will attract criticism, perhaps justified.

BTW, for a movie of the same vintage that portrays the community in a far worse light, see "Kadosh"

IIRC, Shalit never mentions Ragen, one way or the ...

2005-03-02T21:55:00.000-05:00

IIRC, Shalit never mentions Ragen, one way or the other. I've only read "Jepthe's Daughter" and in that book, there are "simple" Orthodox Jews (e.g., the father,) "nasty" Orthodox Jews (the Harshens) and "heroic" ones, as in the rabbi who helps her out and the man she eventually marries. In "JD," the protagonist leaves her community, but somehow always "pulls back" from doing "unkosher" things (e.g., eat the shrimp, sleep with the attractive guy) which people in her position in "real life" would probably do (of course, the book would then be "treif.") Are Ragen's other books like this? If so, Shalit might not object to them.

PS and those who don't are not capable of commenti...

2005-03-02T19:49:00.000-05:00

PS and those who don't are not capable of commenting much on the religious world. they can observe sociology, but informed commentary on a religious community requires some understanding of the interplay between religion and sociology.

my handle is amonie. I don't know ANYONE who lea...

2005-03-02T19:47:00.000-05:00

my handle is amonie.

I don't know ANYONE who learned in charedi institutions who doesn't know the 13 ikarim and the ten commandments.

I do know some Ramaz kids (and the like) who know neither.

Firstly, can you people please use an identifier m...

2005-03-01T15:46:00.000-05:00

Firstly, can you people please use an identifier more descriptive than "Anonymous"? Blogger's started allowing non-members to use whatever name they want without logging in. It really would be apreciated if you could do that. Thanks.

On to your point: You think not knowing the 13 Principles of Maimonidies says a lot? Take a survey of yeshiva bochurim and see how many know them. Then take a survey of those and see how many know the Ten Commandments.
You'll be lucky if you can find a minyan. Actually, if you find a mezuman I'd be impressed.

Anonymous of 9:51-- wow, you collapsed a several-...

2005-03-01T14:58:00.000-05:00

Anonymous of 9:51--
wow, you collapsed a several-thousand-word interview into "she knows nothing about religion"
And "she didn't recognzine the 13 ikarim" is another gross mischaracterization. Of course she knows them; even a Conservative kindergarten student can sing the Yigdal. When asked by the interviewer Luke Ford whether she believes in the 13 ikarim, she responded "remind me", probably because she was worried about be ambushed with "well you are a heretic then". Seeing your post, I guess she had what to be worried about.

Mirvis understands the sociology of Memphis MO. S...

2005-03-01T12:51:00.000-05:00

Mirvis understands the sociology of Memphis MO. She knows nothing about religion, and it limits her work. In her interview with LukeFord, she said didn't recognize the 13 ikarim!

So no, these are not "insiders" in the FRUM world. They represent a segment of Orthopraxy, they have little ability to comment on the intersection of religion and culture - they miss LOTS due to their background.

That was Mirvis' point - she said that what counts is her ability to comment on the culture. Well, I think if you don't know what the 13 ikarim are, and you also talk about how you "study Talmud" then you are severely limited in your ability to comment on OJ.

Frum people don't want the fact that much is rotte...

2005-03-01T12:28:00.000-05:00

Frum people don't want the fact that much is rotten in the state of their Judaism to be expressed at all, even among themselves."

Quite true, but this has no bearing on Shalit's point. Her point is that there are many authors who protray themselves as 'authentic' authors of orthodox life who target the rest of the world and always portray the negative.

The fact that the frum dont like internal criticism is a big problem which has nothing to do with the above.

Well said. Fiction authors write fiction- and can...

2005-03-01T11:31:00.000-05:00

Well said.

Fiction authors write fiction- and can and do write about people DIFFERENT from them, they use IMAGINATION.

There is an amazing movie called "Ushpizin" playing now in Israel with English subtitles that besides being an Oscar level movie in terms of production standards, portrays chasidim in a normal/positive light. It has haskamot one or maybe two rabanim, believe it or not, and was produced to entertain and to partially to combat the dirty chasid media image.

Here's a thought for everyone who believes that th...

2005-03-01T03:53:00.000-05:00

Here's a thought for everyone who believes that the issue is primarily PR: Would people still be as upset if a critical or negative book or film was made which was released and distributed only within the community? I think the answer is yes.

Frum people don't want the fact that much is rotten in the state of their Judaism to be expressed at all, even among themselves.

Yes, A Price Above Rubies was mostly negative abou...

2005-03-01T03:49:00.000-05:00

Yes, A Price Above Rubies was mostly negative about Orthodoxy, but you asked for an example of any film that portrayed a rabbi in a positive light.

Its funny you mention 'A price above rubies' which...

2005-02-28T20:44:00.000-05:00

Its funny you mention 'A price above rubies' which was a pure hit piece on Orthodoxy. Methinks that this hardly counts as sympathetic when the entire movie one long slander of Orthodoxy.

I think what bothers those who are concerned with the genuine orthodoxy of the writer is that one feels that if the author truly comes from that background, that what they are writing (though fiction) is an accurate portrayal.

Ok, fine, so NE isn't what he makes himself out to...

2005-02-28T19:10:00.000-05:00

Ok, fine, so NE isn't what he makes himself out to be. I was actually going to mention him in the post, but he's an exception.

You say the authors are "marketing themselves as frum." First of all, I don't think Shalit actually disputed that they are frum (at least those I'm familiar with, e.g. Mirvis, Ragen). The claim against them is that the frum perspective they give isn't at all accurately representative. And secondly, no one really cares if they are or were actually frum. Just that they have an accurate handle on the society that they're portraying. Do you think Shalit and her allies would care if the author was religious or not? That's not the point, and probably no one really cares one way or the other. It's what the author is writing that matters to them. If they consider it a fair portrayal of their society, they could care less if the person is religious or not.

"The fact is that all of these authors, bloggers a...

2005-02-28T18:34:00.000-05:00

"The fact is that all of these authors, bloggers and social critics speak from a place of genuine experience."

You completely miss the point. Some of those authors portray themselves as coming from a "place of genuine experience" but in fact grew up on Long Island, not in a charedi enclave, and are just IMAGINING.

The objection to the bloggers is VERY different than to frauds.

These authors are no different than Ward Churchill - they are marketing themselves as frum to sell books the way he pretended to be Native American to get a job.

I didn't mean to say that the negative image that ...

2005-02-28T17:58:00.000-05:00

I didn't mean to say that the negative image that these portrayals present to the outside world isn't at all a factor in what bothers the critics. But I think the factor I highlighted is a significant one too, and the more significant factor in many cases. Maybe not in all cases is it the main one, but for many people, having flaws of frum society pointed out - even to the insiders - disturbs them way more than any negative PR to the non-religious/non-Jewish world.

A slight support of this can be seen in the fact that many of the people who complain about these things often don't give a damn about what "the goyim" think of them in other contexts. When a non-jew thinks they're wierd and old-fashioned for whatever it is the Jew is doing, he tends to shrug it off quite easily. So I think it's inconsistent and inaccurate to point to concerns of negative PR as the primary concern in these situations.

Can you name one movie that was screened in a Jewi...

2005-02-28T17:43:00.000-05:00

Can you name one movie that was screened in a Jewish film festival in the last decade which intentionally portrayed a frum person, ideal, or rabbi in a warm, positive light?I don't recall exactly, but I think I remember that in A Price of Rubies the rabbi character was actually quite likable. I definitely remember in The Sacrifice of Tamar, the Rabbi is portrayed very positively. In fact, the heroine (or the closest character to it) repeatedly credits him and the way he treated her through the years as the main positive influence in her life (and what inspired her to become religious).

I disagree. I grew up in the non-Orthodox world an...

2005-02-28T15:06:00.000-05:00

I disagree. I grew up in the non-Orthodox world and the people around me accepted the media's portrayal of Orthodox Judaism as entirely authentic. The Chosen, Fiddler on the Roof and Yentl were many people's only exposure to Orthodoxy and they took them as true even though they are clearly fictional. People are just gullible and non-thinking, as unfortunate as it is. Most minority groups understand this, which is why, for example, Arabs groups always complain when a movie has an Arab as a terrorist. That helps paint the picture in the public's mind, despite the fact that it is entirely fictional. That is why some Orthodox figures are objecting when their communities are portrayed negatively.

In addition to the articles and blogs you cited in the post, see Marvin Schick's piece at http://mschick.blogspot.com

I only agree partially. The real problem is not t...

2005-02-28T14:27:00.000-05:00

I only agree partially.

The real problem is not that there are folks who wish to preserve a pristine view of the frum world (and there are), but that in the generic media, there is only one side portrayed. Can you name one movie that was screened in a Jewish film festival in the last decade which intentionally portrayed a frum person, ideal, or rabbi in a warm, positive light?

In fact, if you peruse the film festivals each year, there are without fail, the following two films:

1. ‘I bet you didn’t know how rotten things were in Frum society’
2. Mendy discovers how life is really much more meaningful outside his cloistered frum life

EVERY YEAR. The movies have different names, but they are always there.

The same goes for fiction, which is Shalit’s point. Of course literature which is aimed internally at the frum world is one-sided, but so is the literature which is aimed externally. That is the problem.

If each side saw both sides of the coin we would all be better off. The problem is that each side works to promote their own insular view of Orthodoxy, whether it’s the frum who want to ignore real problems, or the non-frum who want to believe that there is nothing redeeming or valuable about living a frum life.

Well said. Thank you.

2005-02-28T04:57:00.000-05:00

Well said. Thank you.