tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post111534002482172298..comments2023-09-22T12:40:26.587-04:00Comments on Da'as Hedyot: Opening UpThe Hedyothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1117820501475493672005-06-03T13:41:00.000-04:002005-06-03T13:41:00.000-04:00Oh dear. I recognise this all too well. I am going...Oh dear. I recognise this all too well. I am going through it myself. I studied in a reknowned British Yeshiva in the North-East of England for 10 years and 7 years in Kollel. I even have rabbinical ordination to top it all off. (you''ll just have to take my word for that.) I am also VERY familiar with Jewish Apologetics. You name 'em, I taught their stuff. Yep I am an ex kiruv worker gone very bad. I wonder whether I preached with such fervour in order that I convince myself. In any case it would appear that I failed miserably. When you know that stuff as well as I do, you know where all the holes in the argumentation are. And then you have a real problem if youre looking to "get home" by the lights of reason alone.<BR/><BR/>Revealing your beliefs is inherently risky. Not doing so is on the other hand also risky. If you do not, how long will it be before they notice that you are not as religious as you appear to be? Do you really believe that you can keep up a seamless pretence for the rest of your life? And what for if you believe the rules that you follow have little legitimacy? The truth is that only you can answer the question as to whether to face this head on. Based on what you have shared I think whichever road you decide to take will cause you suffering.<BR/><BR/>Life is analagous to an aeroplane: "a very wel balanced set of compromises" in the words of a the famous engineer. No less true for it's being cliché.<BR/><BR/>I am personally going to be returning to Judaism but that is another story. I have allowed myself free reign to live as a goy also undercover of a religious facade. Let me tell you sirs.... That road leads nowhere. I could not possibly sum up the complex phenomenology and the underlying intellectual torture that I have put myslef through in the space allowed. Suffice it to say that Nietszche would have been proud of my intellectual masochism.<BR/><BR/>Whichever way you chose, remember , you did it for yourself.<BR/><BR/>Regards,<BR/><BR/>The Master<BR/><BR/>P.s. wich Gottlieb and Berger is a Muslim?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1117467643131115932005-05-30T11:40:00.000-04:002005-05-30T11:40:00.000-04:00Obviously the answer depends on the specifics of y...Obviously the answer depends on the specifics of your relationship with your parents. I thought you might benefit from a personal experience I had recently.<BR/>I grew up modern orthodox and as a teenager became very dedicated to being frum and very interested in learning.(I still am.) I ended up learning in a "good Yeshiva" for several years. A friend of mine from high school also learned in that Yeshiva and we learned b'chavrusa for a year and half. This friend of mine was a tremendous "masmid" who put a lot of effort into learning. He was fairly open minded as I am, but we differed in hashkafa in certain key areas. Specifically regarding ,for lack of a better description, emuna p'shuta vs. rational reasons behind belief.<BR/>I was on the rational side while he maintained that he somehow sensed that "it" was true.<BR/>He left the yeshiva to begin working, in order to deal with his fear of not being able to succeed in his profession. At the same time he was finishing his degree in the evenings. Eventually, he stopped learning and moved out of his parents' home to a different neighborhood. I knew that he was having serious issues with frumkeit. As time passed I wondered if he was still frum. Recently I saw him again without his yarmulka at a high school reunion and let's just say I am still shaking. <BR/>I think I would have appreciated him telling me ahead of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115918269140170012005-05-12T13:17:00.000-04:002005-05-12T13:17:00.000-04:00DH,It is hard to advise you anything mostly becaus...DH,<BR/><BR/>It is hard to advise you anything mostly because everything depends on who you are (your character, temperament, etc) and whether you're married (sorry, did not understand it from the post).<BR/><BR/>It seems that the issue here is not only your relationship with paretns and extended family but also whether you are a real "truth seeker" or not. If you are, then sooner or later you will have to break away from something that your consider as a lie.<BR/><BR/>But in the meantime, try to build your own world and your own relationship (with a woman, if you are not married) the way you like it. From what you write I understand that it is "frumkeit" and not Judaism that you can't accept. Carry on and you will find that many texts/sources of Judaism - misappropriated by the frummen - may lead you to the truth you are seeking. Build your own world and find a good friend or two - it will help/save you when you do "announce" your exit from the Frumland.<BR/><BR/>qAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115816448647575302005-05-11T09:00:00.000-04:002005-05-11T09:00:00.000-04:00Your parents brought you into this world and raise...<I>Your parents brought you into this world and raised you and so you owe them something.</I>...and who decides what that "something" is and how much?<BR/><BR/>Who are Berger and Gottlieb?<BR/><BR/>BSM (too lazy to login.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115806612841533652005-05-11T06:16:00.000-04:002005-05-11T06:16:00.000-04:00Vew vewy intewesting.Hedyot - First of all, how ya...Vew vewy intewesting.<BR/><BR/>Hedyot - First of all, how ya doing. As for your issue, I'm all for outs - then again, I'm not you and am probably only speaking my own personality here. But I know that I'd prefer to live completely honestly and not think that I'm "hiding" something.<BR/><BR/>Aswell, I'd say that logically speaking, your take on religion is a lot closer to reality than theirs. Let /them/ hide in the shadows.<BR/><BR/>Anonys - d'ya know how annoying it is whan someone writes anonymously? ;-) As for Me though - - well I... Anyhow - <BR/><BR/>The kiruv man ('who worked in Jewish apologetics') Man(!) do I wish I knew who you were! I mean to say that I probably /do/ know you and would love to know which of the people that I know, happen to be you.<BR/><BR/>I mean, kiruv guys going frei is fun enough, but going /Muslim/?! Well, that's just awesome! <BR/><BR/>Then again, I'm sure you're not anyone that everyone knows, though Gottleib and Berger happen to be Muslim too, by the way. They're just "closet" believers, don't ask how I know.<BR/><BR/>But back to you. I have no problem with you becoming a Muslim, I mean, until you get on my bus and feel an erection coming on. Then I have a problem with you. Otherwise, you're just like the rest of us - fucked up in god knows how many ways and taking a path that for you seems "objectively" to be "the truth". Of course though what you're really doing is rebelling - and part of what you're rebeling against of course happens to be your wife, so in that regard, I'd say you're best off - and certainly She's best off - with a nice, clean divorce. Then you can go to Arabland (!) and live the life that the rest of us only dream of.<BR/><BR/>And so far as your identity goes, c'mon, you never "worked" in kiruv. You might have given a class once, before you knew mezonos from masturbation, or had guys over for Shabbos, before you'd ever heard of Hotza'ah, or been a madrich on some program, or - most likely - worked at heritage house. None of those guys are frum. Seriously. It's quite a phenomenon.<BR/><BR/><BR/>As for anony 2, some folk here might scream at you, or at least they would if they hadn't already given it to the jewish european a moment ago. Anyway, that guy probably deserved it, but I don't think that you do. In fact I like you, and love to stop by on Shabbos sometime.<BR/><BR/>The fact that you're new here is quite obvious and needn't be mentioned, we know that you've just arrived off the ship. You're the thinking, middle-aged quasi-modern-orthodox paternal type who thinks for himself and enjoys more "intellectual" Jewish apologetics and theology - and, like I said, I like you, but Hedyot /knows/ about SRS and lotsa other MO thinkers, accepted and non-accepted, and so do many of the type who stop be here. They know about SRS, may find him interesting or not, but have issues w/Judaism that go far beyond replacing the Gri"z with Aryeh Kaplan. But I /do/ love you, and thanks for trying.<BR/><BR/>meAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115785920622674212005-05-11T00:32:00.000-04:002005-05-11T00:32:00.000-04:00I think you shouldn't change the status quo until ...I think you shouldn't change the status quo until you have to. Your parents brought you into this world and raised you and so you owe them something. If the status quo must change, let them change it. I don't think your personal comfort level is worth the pain they will receive when they openly hear from their son what they will consider words of kefirah.<BR/><BR/>This is the first time I'm visiting this blog so I don't know you and I don't know what books on Judaism you've read. I would suggest The Faith of Judaism by Rabbi Dr. Isidore Epstein (printed in the 40's or 50's I believe) as well as the writings of R. Samson Raphael Hirsh. Judaism need not just be a religion of dry rituals. It can be intellectually facinating. Well, I'm just sharing my thoughts with you. Good luck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115699704774094242005-05-10T00:35:00.000-04:002005-05-10T00:35:00.000-04:00Jewropean:I'm not willing to discuss religious bel...Jewropean:<BR/><BR/>I'm not willing to discuss religious beliefs here -- suffice it to say that I'm <I>very</I> familiar with Jewish Apologetics (having worked in the field).<BR/><BR/>I only posted to comment on the social/personal dilemma of leading a "double life"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115694385527629592005-05-09T23:06:00.000-04:002005-05-09T23:06:00.000-04:00Anon, did you not consider the ramifications to yo...<I>Anon, did you not consider the ramifications to your personal/family life when you converted to Islam?</I><BR/><BR/>Sure -- for months before. The question boiled down to one's relationship with God vs one's relationship with other people -- and how to make both function in a way that fulfills the greatest needs.<BR/><BR/><I>why don't you have the courage to come out to your partner (with whom you volunteered into an adult relationship?)</I><BR/><BR/>I would -- but doing so would force a situation of breaking up the family -- something I'm not willing to do. Not to mention the social impact on the children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115669710760872552005-05-09T16:15:00.000-04:002005-05-09T16:15:00.000-04:00Both Anon & Jewropean amaze me. Anon, did you not ...Both Anon & Jewropean amaze me. Anon, did you not consider the ramifications to your personal/family life when you converted to Islam? My question is not regarding Islam, as much as your choosing it with expectation of staying in the closet. If you believed enough in Islam to convert, why don't you have the courage to come out to your partner (with whom you volunteered into an adult relationship?) Jewro, why is it that you and many other Orthos believe that every person who's "questioning" should submit themselves to a Rav or kiruv web site?Ben Sorer Morehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126544104945727035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115657164984199232005-05-09T12:46:00.000-04:002005-05-09T12:46:00.000-04:00I feel for you Hedyot. These decisions are difficu...I feel for you Hedyot. These decisions are difficult. I think there is some solace in knowing that you are not the only one dealing with these issues. As a matter of fact, it's not only frums that deal with this. I was raised reform, am still 'reform' by some standards; however, I am more observant than I have been in the past and am not opposed to digging deeper into my Judaism. Trust me, if I decided to keep a kosher home (which I am thinking of since I'll soon be moving), I'm sure my family would "whisper" behind my back. <BR/><BR/>Imagine the flip side of your dillema: I went to a birthday party, on Saturday, during Pesach. This was for my step-niece. I figured there would be deli platters and bread and stuff so I brought along a box of matzah. I am pretty sure they were a bit bewildered when I made my sandwich on matzah, and I brought my own Kosher for Pesach chips too. :) I felt so good about my choices because of the 8 or so Jewish adults I was the ONLY one observing Passover. It really really suprised me because we were raised to keep it; and my grandparents were observant and born in Poland.<BR/><BR/>Sooo, even though it's different, I have my own dillemas. If I wanted to keep kosher, eating with family and such would be an issue to resolve.<BR/><BR/>I wish you peace and strength in your choices. I am a firm believer that we must live our lives. "If I am I because you are you, and you are you because I am I, then I am not I and you are not you". I try to live by these words.Tamarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15749298944837540784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115649517317416102005-05-09T10:38:00.000-04:002005-05-09T10:38:00.000-04:00You need to do a cost-benefit analysis that works ...You need to do a cost-benefit analysis that works for you. <BR/><BR/>Ask yourself what the possible price is for coming out, and what you will get for paying that price. <BR/><BR/>And besides, you never know how your parents will react. A number of years ago I had a similar choice. I chose to talk with my parents about my disinterest in judaism and religion. <BR/><BR/>They were surprisingly very supportive. They said that regardless of the path I chose, they would always love me and I would always be their child. Nothing was going to change that. They did insist that as long as I was in the house I play the role, which I understood and was OK with.Air Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00198611603209768337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115644249994671292005-05-09T09:10:00.000-04:002005-05-09T09:10:00.000-04:00Ah, dilemmas. DH, in principle, you'll probably fe...Ah, dilemmas. DH, in principle, you'll probably feel much better having gotten over your parents' reaction to your coming out, than you would wondering how they would react (do you want to carry that for the next 10 years? 20? 30?) OTOH, there's something to be said about not being "in their face" about it. For all it's worth, let me tell you about how I did and didn't do it: Prior to my leaving home (and frumkeit,) My parents and I would fight loudly. over observance and cultural things: The size of my kipa, whether I wore a hat or suit on a date, the people I hung out with, the religion of the women who left messages on my answering machine, you name it. Once, my father gave me a "first person testimonial" book of a baal teshuvah. I sensed that this was directed at me and threw it across the room. (I was never "unfrum" while living with them.) <BR/><BR/>I moved out and began experimenting and we stopped fighting. Wore a kipa and observed their mitzvot while visiting (still do.) I never did a full "coming out." When they continued to press me with shiduchim, I'd say "I'm already seeing someone." (Earlier, they had made it clear that they would not admit to the people they networked with for shiduchim what my desires were.) <BR/><BR/>It was actually my fiancee (now Mrs. Moreh) who "came out" for me. We were there for Pesah (10+ years ago) and my mom asked why we didn't come more often. MM explained that we feel free to travel on Shabbat and hagim and that we're happy to come by and visit anytime (and not stay for 2-3 days.) Mom said she understood, though that wouldn't work for her and my dad (and that I shouldn't tell my dad, because he's old and this might kill him.) BTW, I'm told that Papa Moreh stays up nights worrying that my 40-year-old-still-single-for-all-intents-and-purposes-yeshivishe brother is "a gay," so go figure. On my wedding day, my mom said to me, with my dad present "we want you to know that we accept you for who you are, despite your choice to live life differently than we had intended" (paraphrased.) Wow, what a relief. <BR/><BR/>Things are not 100% neat and clean. I invited my parents to my grad-school graduation, and didn't wear my kipa under my cap. OTOH, they've never been to my house (it's the mess) so I'm not sure if I'd cover my head if they came by. My parents know that we have a house in the country, that's 20 miles from the nearest shul, which we attend (connect the dots, a car helps.) We have no kids (which is an issue in itself,) but we have not had to deal with stuff over them (e.g., where they go to school or how they should behave when they visit Bubbe & Zaide Moreh.)<BR/><BR/>For the most part, I do things their way on their turf, my way on my turf (and mostly keep my perents off of it.)<BR/><BR/>I think there's something to be said for a little bit of restraint, primarily because of the tendency to go "in everyone's face" with one's "new-found-freedom." (Think of SAHM4yrs' husband turning the lights on and off in the kids' room.) But, "don't ask don't tell" will only take you so far. Your parents' not asking is also a very potent weapon in their arsenal. It keeps you off balance. My opinion is that if they ask, do tell. The "ask" is likely to come in questions about who you're dating or would like to date, what you're doing or did some weekend, why you choose to live in a certain place, etc. Try not to be afraid. (BTW, having a shrink helps.)<BR/><BR/>Ben, been there, sorta done that.Ben Sorer Morehhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05126544104945727035noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115545224467019232005-05-08T05:40:00.000-04:002005-05-08T05:40:00.000-04:00I can relate to your problem. I'm going through so...I can relate to your problem. I'm going through someting similar -- I left Orthodoxy (and Judaism, for that matter) and became a Muslim 3 months ago.<BR/><BR/>My problem is that "coming out" will result in losing my wife and kids -- something I'm not willing to do.<BR/><BR/>I'd suggest keeping your situation secret as long as possible. Why cause more heartache for those around you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115498174689145762005-05-07T16:36:00.000-04:002005-05-07T16:36:00.000-04:00Difficult choice. I tend to agree with Mike, thoug...Difficult choice. I tend to agree with Mike, though. Assuming the chances are high that your family, at least your close relatives, will reject you - the policy of "don't ask, don't tell" allows you both to continue maintaining some type of relationship without causing each other ubearable pain. <BR/><BR/>While I think it's sad, that parents would cut off contact with their children for ANY reason - regardless of what the reason is - it's your (our) reality. And in the interest of love, respect and mutual interest, I would think it's wise to keep the extent of your change from them. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps you can find some solace in the fact you are saving them from potential pain. That may very welkl be worth the discomfort of being quiet.Daylihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14442505623626969295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115381947564199012005-05-06T08:19:00.000-04:002005-05-06T08:19:00.000-04:00is it possible your ambivalence is internal.do you...is it possible your ambivalence is internal.do you have to be exactly like your parents or not at all like them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115348356918872842005-05-05T22:59:00.000-04:002005-05-05T22:59:00.000-04:00Boy what a predicament! But I think Mike makes a s...Boy what a predicament! But I think Mike makes a strong point when he says “Life is full of tradeoffs” and I found that I only started feeling the truth in that statement, in many aspects of life, when I started thinking for myself, and acting on what I believed where the best chooses for me and my kids.<BR/><BR/>I found that for all those who are following the safe root of letting others think for them, and following blindly the “system”; they are avoiding the reality of that statement, I have had many friend who have asked me “so now you have moved away are you any happier?” and I always try to answer by explaining that chooses in life have tradeoffs, and that there are fewer things I am unhappy with now compared to how things use to be, there answer is always the same typical answer “well you just should have done like we all have done and stayed fully in the system, and that way if any thing goes wrong you are not to blame”.<BR/><BR/>First time I have come across your blog so I do not know too much about you, but I would say that if your family is any thing like the typical “Frum” family, then yes they will reject you and it will only damage your relationship with them. but any way I don’t know where you have this fairy tale image of open family’s where every one can express themselves, and be respected for who they are, this must be some kind of funny image you picked up from the outside world, because there is not much place for that in the “system”!!!!<BR/><BR/>Ok sorry my comment turned out a bit too long, but as a word of advice I would say that even thou family is one of the most important things in life, it still is not every thing, and sooner or later you will find that you can not live the rest of your life according to the script they have prepared for you. So think hard, and go with your heart. Good luck.LostSpirithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07076935935143393826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115344643996088352005-05-05T21:57:00.000-04:002005-05-05T21:57:00.000-04:00DH: the answer lies in your heart only. Perhaps yo...DH: the answer lies in your heart only. Perhaps you have one particular relative with whom you can confide and share your views with.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115343306983988992005-05-05T21:35:00.000-04:002005-05-05T21:35:00.000-04:00In either case you will not achieve the deeper rel...<I>In either case you will not achieve the deeper relationship with your family that you desire.</I><BR/><BR/>Not neccessarily. If it was a foregone conclusion, you'd be right. But it's not. Like I said, it's a gamble. The question is, is it worth risking the meager relationship I currently have to possibly attain a better one, or should I not risk it and play it safe with what I have?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-1115341896944502932005-05-05T21:11:00.000-04:002005-05-05T21:11:00.000-04:00DH:It seems to me that you really have no option. ...DH:<BR/>It seems to me that you really have no option. In either case you will not achieve the deeper relationship with your family that you desire. If you muzzle your feelings, you will maintain a kesher with your family, which I assume is your wish. True, you will not obtain the deeper relationship you want, but that will also not occur if they cut you off. Life is full of tradeoffs. Good luck.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com