tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post3480032754802707121..comments2023-09-22T12:40:26.587-04:00Comments on Da'as Hedyot: Finding Religion in CollegeThe Hedyothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-2170950958858407122009-04-23T14:08:00.000-04:002009-04-23T14:08:00.000-04:00Alex,
"Barrett, however, mentioned that this theo...Alex,<br /><br />"Barrett, however, mentioned that this theory, along with the rest of the new findings, is bound to be controversial, since other researchers have presented data suggesting that a peacock's train does influence whether or not a female will choose to mate with him."<br /><br />I guess we'll see then.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-85468690457518954162009-04-23T11:21:00.000-04:002009-04-23T11:21:00.000-04:00Orthoprax, you might want to get more up-to-date o...Orthoprax, you might want to get more up-to-date on peacock research:<br />http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/03/26/peacock-feathers-females.html<br />http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/<br />03/26/peacock-feathers-females.html<br /><br />“The determination throws a wrench in the long-held belief that male peacock feathers evolved in response to female mate choice,”alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-87170785391339685812009-04-22T22:50:00.000-04:002009-04-22T22:50:00.000-04:00I wasn't making a judgment about it. I was simply ...<I>I wasn't making a judgment about it. I was simply showing the similarities.</I>As Orthoprax explained well, the similarities are not meaningful. Whether you agree with it or not, the practices required in Orthodoxy are intended to have meaning (whether spiritual or actual). Holding a brick is not any more than showing that sense of sacrifice on behalf of the community. (Which, btw, ties into the "rogue element" OP noted - it is not so much the specifics of how a person breaks from the klal that is the problem than it is that they are breaking at all that is the problem. Whether those views are often too narrow - as most reasonable frum Jews would say regarding most of your examples - is an issue within Orthodoxy, but not a specific trait about Orthodox Judaism any more than any other group.)<br /><br />As for the rest of the commentary, pretty much what OP said as well.Ezziehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12494592434522239195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-29359378322039128862009-04-22T12:49:00.000-04:002009-04-22T12:49:00.000-04:00One point is that it really isn't about doing acts...One point is that it really isn't about doing acts that appear irrational to outsiders but in doing acts that are personally taxing in some way.<br /><br />Wearing the full chasidish costume even during a heat wave helps demonstrate that you're a loyal member.<br /><br />This also reminds me of evolutionary sexual selection where traits that seem counter to biological expediency nevertheless persist in a species. Like the feathery plume of a peacock which apparently only offers its host only additional weight to carry about and bright colors to attract predators. Or like the oversized antlers of deer which can serve no defensive or offensive purpose.<br /><br />The theory behind these traits are that they are indeed a strain on the animal's constitution and do in fact make them less fit with respect to the basic habits of living. However, what they demonstrate to potential mates is that this individual is strong enough not just to survive but has ample vitality to the point that they can support gaudy additions.<br /><br />This may also help explain the concommitant shidduch "crisis" and the ever-widening acceptance of stricter and stricter chumrot.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-30489833964971501242009-04-22T11:31:00.000-04:002009-04-22T11:31:00.000-04:00Well actually I recently read a newspaper article ...Well actually I recently read a newspaper article that says exactely this: it´s all about loyalty.shoshinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-62046443409739827792009-04-22T09:14:00.000-04:002009-04-22T09:14:00.000-04:00Brilliant observation. I am 63 and have never thug...Brilliant observation. I am 63 and have never thught of orhodox life from that perspective. To sum things up or in the proverbial nutshell. Many of us are no longer observant but have chosen to remain living in their world. So goes the charadeJason Inoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-79765074980504003822009-04-22T02:13:00.000-04:002009-04-22T02:13:00.000-04:00Nothing new here, Economist Eli Berman discusses t...Nothing new here, Economist Eli Berman discusses this idea in a truly methodical manner in his paper, <A HREF="http://pluto.huji.ac.il/~msfalkin/pdfs/98-08.pdf" REL="nofollow">Sect,Subsidy,and Sacrifice</A>. It all has to do with being part of the club. If you want to get the benefits of being part of the group, you have to show you are really part of the group.Originally From Brooklynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05927411127491577903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-32960983362495197542009-04-22T00:02:00.000-04:002009-04-22T00:02:00.000-04:00> Frum Judaism is basically like a gang, and if...> Frum Judaism is basically like a gang, and if you choose to leave it, expect to be treated viciously.<br /><br />That's an unfair criticism. All social groups have expectations of members, and in return for meeting these expectations they get some benefits.<br /><br />Judaism has expectations. 613 big ones. In return for orthopraxis, you get benefits, like shabbas dinners.<br /><br />Orthopraxis (I really need a better word farther removed from Orthoprax) is defined by the community you are extracting benefit from, nothing more or less.Joshua Skootskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14060547164324216849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-11447484682702533922009-04-21T08:36:00.000-04:002009-04-21T08:36:00.000-04:00"Religion often (not always, but often) asks peopl..."Religion often (not always, but often) asks people to live their lives by a set of rules that doesn't make any sense whatsoever to a rational person."<br /><br />You probably meant "...by a set of rules, /some of which/ don't make any sense..."<br /><br /> "And why? Because the religious authority (god, the rabbis, the talmud, etc.) says so."<br /><br />That's a backwards-looking "why." There's also a frontwards-looking "why."<br /><br />"Religion often says to its adherents, "Don't trust your own moral sense of right and wrong. It's only right or wrong because we say so.""<br /><br />That happens in every group, even amongst so-called freethinkers. (Recall the Perez Hilton slam of Miss California for stating her views on homosexual marriage.)<br /><br />"Isn't it common to find religion highly averse to independent thought?"<br /><br />That happens a lot in many fields of science, even. Groupthink 'n' all.<br /><br />"Doesn't religion grant its adherents countless benefits denied to outsiders, in exchange for its members' continued loyalty and devotion?"<br /><br />Like the National Society of Accountants?alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-16495764024667647242009-04-20T21:50:00.000-04:002009-04-20T21:50:00.000-04:00Hedyot,
"Here's why your statement confuses me: F...Hedyot,<br /><br />"Here's why your statement confuses me: Firstly, just because someone stopped being religious doesn't mean at all that they left the Jewish people. They just left the religious community."<br /><br />That may be true today, but we're working with concepts from a time when this was hardly an option.<br /><br />"Secondly, just because one leaves a group doesn't make them a rogue element towards that group. People leave things all the time without becoming 'anti' the group they left."<br /><br />'Rogue' doesn't mean 'anti.' It means being outside of normal control and potentially dangerous.<br /><br />"I'm not denying how things might have been historically, but I'd like to know what I have done to consider me a rogue element towards the Jewish people. (Or even towards the religious community.)"<br /><br />If you're not bound by the values and interests of the group then you have the potential of turning against it. Intentionally or as a tool for others who wish to do them harm. This is in the historical sense, I'm not applying it to you personally.<br /><br />"Thirdly, it's probably worth considering that historically, much of the antagonism that did develop towards the community of origin might well have been a result of how the person was treated when they left (or as they were leaving)."<br /><br />That very well may have played a role.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-83691153116166312722009-04-20T21:02:00.000-04:002009-04-20T21:02:00.000-04:00> but the endless haranguing about my halachic ...<I>> but the endless haranguing about my halachic "shortcomings", my "krum" hashkafa, the many scornful comments, and the condescending and hostile attitudes...</I><BR><BR>By the way, what I'm referring to here is not in regard to any outright violations of halacha, but rather simply to not keeping up with their standards. Some examples:<br /><br />* When telling a friend that I was going to a certain yishuv for shabbos, his reply was, <I>"You're going there? But aren't they mizrachnikim?!"</I><BR><BR>* When telling a friend that I had a seder in learning chumash, his reply: <I>"But that's not real learning!"</I><BR><BR>* When walking into a relative's house on erev Rosh Hashana, dressed in sneakers and a polo shirt, and being greeted by my cousin saying, <I>"This is how you dress on erev Rosh Hashana!?"</I><BR><BR>* The countless times I had people give me a look or comment on the fact that I wasn't wearing a hat & jacket in minyan.<br /><br />* The hours long shmuez that a high school friend of mine subjected me to when he found out I was only learning in the mornings, and not full time.<br /><br />* A rabbi friend of mine making a derisive comment when he saw me talking to a female acquaintance.<br /><br />* The countless comments I put up with from my yeshiva-mates because I was always finding odd jobs to keep me busy instead of keeping myself hunched over a gemara where I belonged.<br /><br />Don't get me wrong here: I'm not saying that these are reasons I stopped being frum. They're not. (Although they no doubt contributed to my eventual transition.) I'm just bringing them as examples of what made me realize that I was not welcome (even though I was totally frum) in the chareidi world.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-50162926843995462812009-04-20T19:47:00.000-04:002009-04-20T19:47:00.000-04:00> I'd love to hear the great positive purpo...<I>> I'd love to hear the great positive purpose served when a homosexual teenager is told that he or she must deny their intrinsic nature and be burdened with a lifetime of guilt and shame.</I><BR><BR>True. But not just homosexual teens. What great purpose is there in making even straight kids feel guilty about doing something (or just wanting to do something) that's perfectly normal and healthy?Susannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-11709306422721440442009-04-20T19:38:00.000-04:002009-04-20T19:38:00.000-04:00> Frum Judaism is basically like a gang, and if...<I>> Frum Judaism is basically like a gang, and if you choose to leave it, expect to be treated viciously.</I><BR><BR>I object to this categorization, both in its tone and content.The Hedyothttp://daashedyot.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-5945024813934107852009-04-20T19:10:00.000-04:002009-04-20T19:10:00.000-04:00> I don't know why this confuses you. A per...<I>> I don't know why this confuses you. A person who leaves the Jewish people has probably lost their sense of loyalty...</I><BR><BR>Here's why your statement confuses me: Firstly, just because someone stopped being religious doesn't mean at all that they left the Jewish people. They just left the religious community.<br /><br />Secondly, just because one leaves a group doesn't make them a rogue element towards that group. People leave things all the time without becoming 'anti' the group they left. I'm not denying how things might have been historically, but I'd like to know what I have done to consider me a rogue element towards the Jewish people. (Or even towards the religious community.)<br /><br />Thirdly, it's probably worth considering that historically, much of the antagonism that did develop towards the community of origin might well have been a result of how the person was treated when they left (or as they were leaving). One only need conduct a brief survey of the blogosphere to see some of the horrible reactions that people who left have encountered. Quite a few people who left out of simple frustration and disillusionment found their feelings turning much more bitter and angry after encountering the hostile reactions of the frum community.The Hedyothttp://daashedyot.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-89135557461019644012009-04-20T17:57:00.000-04:002009-04-20T17:57:00.000-04:00Hedyot,
"What? A rogue element? Are you just maki...Hedyot,<br /><br />"What? A rogue element? Are you just making things up now? What does this even mean? In what way is the person a rogue element?!"<br /><br />I don't know why this confuses you. A person who leaves the Jewish people has probably lost their sense of loyalty and historically often used their knowledge of Judaism against the Jewish people.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-43368006697058795952009-04-20T17:47:00.000-04:002009-04-20T17:47:00.000-04:00> Do you know if your family/friends regret tre...<I>> Do you know if your family/friends regret treating you that way now?</I><BR><BR>Of course they do. But the really sad thing is that it doesn't actually make them change how they function or think. I still see them relating to people now the same way they did to me then. It's only after the fact, after the person takes drastic steps, such as leaving frumkeit, or dropping out of school, do they try to relate to the person with any semblance of acceptance. But until that happens, they usually continue to be derisive of the persons less strict approach to halacha.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-68512305045419841282009-04-20T17:06:00.000-04:002009-04-20T17:06:00.000-04:00Great points.
Frum Judaism is basically like a ga...Great points. <br />Frum Judaism is basically like a gang, and if you choose to leave it, expect to be treated viciously.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-80004570861248064032009-04-20T16:35:00.000-04:002009-04-20T16:35:00.000-04:00>but the endless haranguing about my halachic &...>but the endless haranguing about my halachic "shortcomings", my "krum" hashkafa, the many scornful comments, and the condescending and hostile attitudes made me finally realize that I was never going to be welcome in their community.<br /><br />Do you know if your family/friends regret treating you that way now?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-44132967035934231222009-04-20T16:31:00.000-04:002009-04-20T16:31:00.000-04:00> I don't think this is as crazy as you mig...> I don't think this is as crazy as you might think. In fact, as I understand it, it's pretty much how many Jewish communities existed in America until pretty recently.<br /><br />I think you're correct. The thought occurred to me after I posted my comment. Even when I was growing up things were more relaxed. I think within the last 30 years there has been a real sharp right turn in the Orthodox community. I'm told outside the New York area it still relatively laid back.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-78224894457006432142009-04-20T16:27:00.000-04:002009-04-20T16:27:00.000-04:00PSA: For some reason Blogger is removing the line ...PSA: For some reason Blogger is removing the line break between the closing italics tag and the next line of text. You can fix this by inserting a double [br] tag after the [/i] tag. <br /><br />(You can ignore this if you have no idea what I'm talking about.)The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-46448315940694370202009-04-20T16:24:00.000-04:002009-04-20T16:24:00.000-04:00> What would it mean to be a part of the halach...<I>> What would it mean to be a part of the halachic community, but to disregard halacha openly?</I><BR><BR>I don't think this is as crazy as you might think. In fact, as I understand it, it's pretty much how many Jewish communities existed in America until pretty recently. People drove to shul, even if it was Orthodox. They kept a basic kosher home, but ate non-kosher outside the home. They sent their kids to a religious school, even if they themselves weren't shomer shabbos.<br /><br />They were part of the community, even though they might not have been halachic themselves.<br /><br />Nowadays though, even for something as minor as not eating chalav yisrael, people shun their neighbors!The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-58574119982601847882009-04-20T16:04:00.000-04:002009-04-20T16:04:00.000-04:00> But seriously when one separates themselves f...<I>> But seriously when one separates themselves from the community they then exist as a rogue element.</I><BR><BR>What? A rogue element? Are you just making things up now? What does this even mean? In what way is the person a rogue element?!The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-68592720843402808552009-04-20T16:01:00.000-04:002009-04-20T16:01:00.000-04:00> what do you mean when you say you wanted to s...<I>> what do you mean when you say you wanted to stay, but they told you to leave. </I><BR><BR>Throughout the period that I started being less yeshivishly frum all the way through when I was actually modern orthodox, I was continuously reminded by my peers and family how the way I was living was unacceptable and illegitimate (well, not by my MO peers). Admittedly, no one directly said, "Leave already!" but the endless haranguing about my halachic "shortcomings", my "krum" hashkafa, the many scornful comments, and the condescending and hostile attitudes made me finally realize that I was never going to be welcome in their community.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-47644062549322328592009-04-20T15:56:00.000-04:002009-04-20T15:56:00.000-04:00So, then, it's ok to bully people because one's pa...So, then, it's ok to bully people because one's past experiences have led to a fear of being bullied?<br /><br />I don't get it.Bridgewalkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17982895856463498296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-60471568548845807722009-04-20T15:42:00.000-04:002009-04-20T15:42:00.000-04:00Hedyot,
"Why is this so terrible? Why is it such ...Hedyot,<br /><br />"Why is this so terrible? Why is it such an unforgvable sin to remove oneself from what one sees as a source of pain, oppression, and falsehood?"<br /><br />Well, when you put it like that...<br /><br />But seriously when one separates themselves from the community they then exist as a rogue element. A rogue element which has historically been the source of exhaustive suffering for the Jewish people. Renegade Jews have historically been amongst the worst persecuters of the Jewish people and the worst denigrators of the Jewish tradition.<br /><br />I'm not saying that's you, but you can surely appreciate it in context.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.com