tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post6794122850493959202..comments2023-09-22T12:40:26.587-04:00Comments on Da'as Hedyot: Better Know A Kofer - Derech Acheret (Part II)The Hedyothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-6493112931166512582010-01-28T09:50:23.651-05:002010-01-28T09:50:23.651-05:00Yes, I know. But even assuming God commands that w...Yes, I know. But even assuming God commands that which is moral rather than morality is that which God commands, I don't see how anyone could claim to know with certainty the dictates of the higher morality. Without certainty, how can we reject the commands of an omnisceint Being who necessarily knows better than we do on the grounds that they're immoral? I think it is first necessary, at the very least, to reject the Being's omniscience, which means rejecting some of the tenets of Judaism.<br /><br />That is, whether or not the tenets are true is more of an issue than whether or not we like the commands/practices.<br /><br />There is also the question of whether it is wise to disobey an omnipotent God, whatever His morality.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-85188083785188704452010-01-28T03:30:58.132-05:002010-01-28T03:30:58.132-05:00@G*3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_...@G*3<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemmaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-79003024777723655572010-01-27T15:44:36.541-05:002010-01-27T15:44:36.541-05:00Hedyot,
Will you make me your next installment in...Hedyot,<br /><br />Will you make me your next installment in this series?<br /><br />- TovaTovahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13810096432831688198noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-11218487195898521662010-01-26T22:58:25.957-05:002010-01-26T22:58:25.957-05:00Okay.Okay.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-84355165312616529902010-01-26T17:39:36.002-05:002010-01-26T17:39:36.002-05:00Like I said, not interested.Like I said, not interested.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-51641106132410428902010-01-26T17:34:56.064-05:002010-01-26T17:34:56.064-05:00All right.
Would you mind pointing out the flaws,...All right.<br /><br />Would you mind pointing out the flaws, though? If it's too much trouble, that's fine, but if it's not I'd like the opportunity to correct any errors I may have made.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-22606123395302318632010-01-26T15:20:59.167-05:002010-01-26T15:20:59.167-05:00G*3, you may well be raising valid points (althoug...G*3, you may well be raising valid points (although I sense that many of your premises are fundamentally flawed), but I for one have absolutely no interest in engaging in any of those particular discussions.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-38710562336504916982010-01-26T13:15:41.272-05:002010-01-26T13:15:41.272-05:00> The usual religious definition of “moral” is ...> The usual religious definition of “moral” is “what God wants.” <br />> If so, why would Abraham argue with god about destroying Sodom, claiming it was unjust? If God wanted it, didn't that necessarily make it the moral thing to do? <br /><br />Again, specific examples in the Chumash are really beside the point, but Avraham didn’t claim destroying the city was wrong, he claimed that killing good people along with the bad was wrong. And in fact, we see that Avraham’s bargaining was unsuccessful, implying that God was in the right all along. <br /><br />> I don't see why it's in any way any more problematic to reject Judaism because you don't like it, than it is to keep it because you do like it - which is why the overwhelming majority of people are observant.<br /><br />Granted, if the only reason for accepting or rejecting religion is personal preference, not liking misogyny is as good a reason as any to reject Judaism. And I think you’re right that most people are religious due to inertia rather than an objective evaluation of the truth of their religion. If you treat religion as a lifestyle with no larger consequences, then rejecting it because you don’t like it is perfectly reasonable. But religions make larger claims. Shouldn’t whether or not God exists and endorses certain practices at least be part of the equation?<br /><br />To put it a different way, a religious person has his faith to rest on as a reason for accepting his particular superstitions and rejecting those of everyone else. While I think faith is a lousy epistemology, it at least provides the illusion of rationality. Once faith is no longer a consideration, some other reason is needed to reject religious truth-claims. “I don’t like it” is just an appeal to consequences. <br /><br />(I’m not saying that religious claims need to be proven false – a lack of proof that they’re true is a valid reason to reject them. To reject a religion simply because you don’t like it, though, is saying, “I don’t know or care if the religion’s claims are true, but I don’t like its practices so I’m going to act as if they’re not.”)G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-39528775372654114532010-01-26T13:15:25.636-05:002010-01-26T13:15:25.636-05:00> Do you need god to tell you not to kill someo...> Do you need god to tell you not to kill someone to know it's morally wrong? We all have the ability to perceive certain moral truths, regardless of if it's written down in a supposedly holy book.<br /><br />Certainly, you can construct a moral system without God, but such a system relies on personal preferences and popular opinion. In such a moral system, it is wrong to murder because everyone agrees that it’s wrong to murder. It’s like fiat money. A dollar bill is worth a dollar because everyone agrees it’s worth a dollar, not because the green piece of paper has actual intrinsic value.<br /><br />That we all “perceive certain moral truths” is a quirk of our wiring, not proof that these things are truly “right” or “wrong” in an objective sense.<br /><br />Given the subjective nature of such a moral system, how can you use it to reject what would be, if its assumptions are true, an moral system established by the only Being in a position to rally know what is objectively moral? (And yes, this is subjective in the sense that it relies on God’s will as the arbiter of morality, but such a system based on an omniscient Being should be more reliable than a human-constructed one.)<br /><br />> In fact, if it's true that people don't possess an ingrained understanding of basic elements of right and wrong, how was god able to hold Cain accountable for killing his brother? After all, god hadn't told him not to do it, so how could Cain have known it was immoral?<br /><br />Beside the point. You can argue that God wired us to instinctively recognize certain parts of morality, or you can say God was being a jerk. What we’re discussing is whether a person’s personal moral system (and there are enough differences in moral systems across time and cultures to support the argument that many parts of morality are not universal) is a justification for rejecting an ostensibly God-given religion.<br /><br />> And that contributed to her rejection of it.<br /><br />This is part of what I was asking. Was her moral outrage alone what her objection rests on, or was it merely what made her investigate Judaism’s truth-claims?G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-54120125027185399772010-01-26T02:05:57.137-05:002010-01-26T02:05:57.137-05:00> Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but it sound...<i>> Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but it sounds like you reject Judaism not because you think its factually wrong, but simply because you don’t like it.</i><br /><br />Some may not like such an accusation, but I actually don't have any problem with it. I don't see why it's in any way any more problematic to reject Judaism because you don't like it, than it is to keep it because you do like it - which is why the overwhelming majority of people are observant.<br /><br />I often tell people that I'm not frum for the same reason they are frum - because of how much I like it.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-41816529226019712262010-01-26T02:01:49.382-05:002010-01-26T02:01:49.382-05:00> The usual religious definition of “moral” is ...<i>> The usual religious definition of “moral” is “what God wants.” </i><br /><br />If so, why would Abraham argue with god about destroying Sodom, claiming it was unjust? If God wanted it, didn't that necessarily make it the moral thing to do?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-36033830140889706522010-01-26T01:59:31.039-05:002010-01-26T01:59:31.039-05:00> ...from where do you derive your moral standa...<i>> ...from where do you derive your moral standards? And do those moral standards trump God’s will?<br /></i><br /><br />Do you need god to tell you not to kill someone to know it's morally wrong? We all have the ability to perceive certain moral truths, regardless of if it's written down in a supposedly holy book.<br /><br />In fact, if it's true that people don't possess an ingrained understanding of basic elements of right and wrong, how was god able to hold Cain accountable for killing his brother? After all, god hadn't told him not to do it, so how could Cain have known it was immoral?<br /><br />As I understood her story, Derech Acheret, like many other such people (myself included), recognized certain basic truths about morality that seemed to fly in the face of what Orthodox Judaism claimed. And that contributed to her rejection of it.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-66064992005188352452010-01-26T01:40:07.891-05:002010-01-26T01:40:07.891-05:00> G*3, I enjoyed your word play but really didn...> G*3, I enjoyed your word play but really didn’t understand it, despite extensive efforts, sorry.<br /><br />All right, I’ll try again.<br /><br />It seems that your objection to Judaism is that it is misogynistic. You say that you find the male-orientation immoral, and you therefore rejected the religion. That is, you find it immoral that prayers are addressed to a male God and that as a woman you are excluded from leadership roles.<br /><br />Let’s suppose, for the sake of argument, that God revealed himself to you and told you that Judaism, misogyny and all, is His will. Would you still reject it? If so, on what grounds?<br /><br />The usual religious definition of “moral” is “what God wants.” If God personally told you that this is what he wants, would you still consider it immoral, and if so, from where do you derive your moral standards? And do those moral standards trump God’s will?<br /><br />Like I said before, I think that whether or not Judaism is objectively true (God exists, Torah miSinai, God-given right of rabbinical interpretation, etc.) is more to the point than whether or not it matches our personal definition of morality.<br /><br />> 'Or was the misogyny just the thing that pushed her to question everything else?'<br />> Yes. As I said in the interview, ‘Maybe if I'd been brought up in an environment where my learning was valued, or where I was taught gemara… or in a Minyan like Shira Chadasha … I wouldn't have realized quite so early on how much women get excluded from leadership and law making roles’<br /><br />None of the things you mentioned are questioning the truth of Judaism, they are merely objections to how Judaism is practiced. It seems that if Judaism were more egalitarian you would have no problems with it. Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but it sounds like you reject Judaism not because you think its factually wrong, but simply because you don’t like it.G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-21062184560529134072010-01-25T21:14:59.939-05:002010-01-25T21:14:59.939-05:00Is it just me, or is this a bit ridiculous? If you...Is it just me, or is this a bit ridiculous? If you are against male gender Judaism and prayer/blessings, why would you bend to the same extreme just switching genders?!?!? Wouldn't the whole point be to incorporate both genders and create a sense of balance, of ying and yang?!?! However, Judaic prayer/liturgy, to an extent, already does that re shabbat/shabbos. Shabbat/Shabbos, which is central to Jewish observance, is the embodiment of the feminine(shechina), hence "shabbat malketa" and the entire "Lecha Dodi".<br /><br />Regarding this issue of the feminine/Judaism, I recommend studying some of the writings and ideas of Rav Kook. He writes alot about this topic. Kabblah as well, talks alot about Judaism in masculine-feminine terms. Actually, there is a lot of feminine in Judaism. It may not be the same as in your western sensibilities of feminism, but it is there. Judasim incorporates both male and female energies.Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-27144617040495256622010-01-25T15:57:31.366-05:002010-01-25T15:57:31.366-05:00Bless you Shmendrik! I hope you become a great doc...Bless you Shmendrik! I hope you become a great doctor! <br /><br />‘why not do a bracha-like thing without the male god reference?’<br /><br />I was at a Shabbat lunch and a woman learning at Hebrew College made motsi in the feminine, using words like, brucha at, schina, malka, hamotzia, the whole bracha with totally correct female grammar and it sounded lovely and more power to her. <br />There was a time when I tried to put all the tphillot into the feminine and it’s damn hard work! Try it just for the brachot. Now try the Amida. It takes ages and really deep kavana. And I did it for one Kol Nidrei. <br /><br />But then I realized that that's really not the point. Judaism is not intended to be in the female. It is male. So all our liturgy and literature reflects that. And therefore brachot are not true for me. <br /><br />There is an attempt to ‘female’ davening in the Renewal movement and I really look forward to seeing what types of liturgy they create. But still, SO not mainstream. Imagine the hostility that siddur will provoke once published!Derech Acheretnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-77414611367420116472010-01-25T15:52:52.075-05:002010-01-25T15:52:52.075-05:00G*3, I enjoyed your word play but really didn’t un...G*3, I enjoyed your word play but really didn’t understand it, despite extensive efforts, sorry. <br /><br />'Or was the misogyny just the thing that pushed her to question everything else?'<br /><br />Yes. As I said in the interview, ‘Maybe if I'd been brought up in an environment where my learning was valued, or where I was taught gemara… or in a Minyan like Shira Chadasha … I wouldn't have realized quite so early on how much women get excluded from leadership and law making roles’Derech Acheretnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-71391741797379973302010-01-25T15:48:28.704-05:002010-01-25T15:48:28.704-05:00Gamzoo, I've not been keeping things for about...Gamzoo, I've not been keeping things for about seven years now. By self actualized I mean that I am living the right life for me, a life true to who I actually am as opposed what others hope me to be.derech acheretnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-26789381510245284282010-01-24T23:45:04.858-05:002010-01-24T23:45:04.858-05:00Oops. Further proof that blog reading/commenting a...Oops. Further proof that blog reading/commenting and 20-hour medical school study sessions don't mix. :-)<br /><br />But in any case, why not do a bracha-like thing without the male god reference?Shmendriknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-4415401825487830772010-01-24T22:26:10.922-05:002010-01-24T22:26:10.922-05:00> So why would you stop saying brachot?
Shmend...<i>> So why would you stop saying brachot?</i><br /><br />Shmendrik, I asked her exactly that:<br /><br /><i><b>Why did you feel a need to make yourself stop these behaviors? If it didn’t bother you, then why not just let it be?</b><br /><br />Because it did bother me. I no longer believed in the male god of the brachot or the system that wrote them and would have me say them. Saying them felt not true to who I now was.</i>The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-73424741613123607312010-01-24T18:57:00.871-05:002010-01-24T18:57:00.871-05:00Ok, so here we have the baby and the bathwater aga...Ok, so here we have the baby and the bathwater again:<br /><br />--<br />It took me a long time to stop saying brachot on food and asher yatzer. It was so Pavlovian that I'd just start reciting them automatically, and would have to remind myself, "No, I don't do that anymore".<br />--<br /><br />A few paragraphs later, you are saying that you prefer the religious lifestyle to Western materialism and that you believe in God, though not necessarily the Orthodox version. So why would you stop saying brachot? When done properly, they're a nice way to remind ourselves to feel grateful for what we have. What made you decide that you "don't do that anymore"?Shmendriknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-70754977816636822702010-01-24T09:38:28.107-05:002010-01-24T09:38:28.107-05:00I really enjoy reading your postings. Please keep ...I really enjoy reading your postings. Please keep up the good work. I have read that there is reseach suggesting that one'e attachment to religiosity is genetically linked. I have always been a totally nonreligious person and have a lot of trouble understanding how otherwise intelligent people could believe in things that are to me totally nonsensical. This blog is helpful to me in this regard. <br /><br />JonathanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-45736840156268868482010-01-23T23:24:57.793-05:002010-01-23T23:24:57.793-05:00One of the things I’ve found really interesting ab...One of the things I’ve found really interesting about this series is the variety of reasons why people leave frumkeit.<br /><br />If I understand correctly, Derech Acheret left because she found the misogyny inherent in Orthodox society to be immoral. But doesn’t that depend on a necessarily arbitrary definition of “moral?” After all, if “moral” is that which God commands, then women’s second-class place in Judaism is by definition moral. It is only if you deny the principle that morality is defined by God or if you deny that a particular value system is based on God’s command that the immorality of the system becomes grounds for abandoning it.<br /><br />Or to put it a different way, isn’t the question of whether or not Judaism is the Truth more to the point than whether or not it conforms to a modern system of morality?<br /><br />Or was the misogyny just the thing that pushed her to question everything else?G*3https://www.blogger.com/profile/06104739087560005056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-2333256165462600842010-01-22T10:51:03.656-05:002010-01-22T10:51:03.656-05:00Great stuff. Keep up the interviews please! :-)Great stuff. Keep up the interviews please! :-)Jewish Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04616617537150446818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-3071563253520099242010-01-22T09:28:22.881-05:002010-01-22T09:28:22.881-05:00Great interview!
It was overall excellent, but I ...Great interview!<br /><br />It was overall excellent, but I liked Part II better than Part I.OTDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12284266882043971891noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-18783240129007809582010-01-22T06:42:50.898-05:002010-01-22T06:42:50.898-05:00Hi Derech Acheret,
I enjoyed reading your intervi...Hi Derech Acheret,<br /><br />I enjoyed reading your interview.You seem like a good and intelligent person. I have a few questions. How long have you not been shomer shabbos? And what do you mean by self actualized? Do you mean following your own judgment as opposed to looking to others for what to do?<br /><br />ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com