tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post6947950956711914319..comments2023-09-22T12:40:26.587-04:00Comments on Da'as Hedyot: Better Know A Kofer - AdrienneThe Hedyothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-75849814970850487582010-02-10T11:47:24.279-05:002010-02-10T11:47:24.279-05:00Great, Yellow...that thing about adoption will out...Great, Yellow...that thing about adoption will out me. But I still love you anyway. By the way being a King has a lot to do with performance, when we take to the stage we do skits or we lip synch to songs, and yeah I have gone to parties in drag.<br /><br />Holy Hyrax, now that my dear has let the cat out of the bag, We pretty much told my mom that with all the meds I need to take to stay this stable, it is simply not smart for us to get pregnant. I broke it to my mom that since we are probably going through the state, it may be a child of another race. My father was immediately accepting, my mom had had a fit and said that she needs to ask her rabbi.<br /><br />And also, I did not leave for just the freedom, though looking at my interview now, it looks that way. I never said i was eloquent. We will just agree to disagree.Adriennenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-25792207308644944842010-02-09T20:46:08.637-05:002010-02-09T20:46:08.637-05:00Chaya, see this link:
http://www.slate.com/id/218...Chaya, see this link:<br /><br />http://www.slate.com/id/2180294<br /><br />If you read Emily Yoffe's Dear Prudence column in Slate and had read her curious experiment as a Drag King, it would probably be easier to read this post with an open mind. At least for me. I also tend to have a Stewie Griffin reaction to things I've only heard rumors about but never saw up close.Shpitzhttp://shpitzleshtible.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-18224789838158964982010-02-09T20:06:14.071-05:002010-02-09T20:06:14.071-05:00I'd really love to hear more about the drag ki...I'd really love to hear more about the drag king thing. What exactly does a drag king do? Is it for a performance or parties, or do you just feel like dressing up like a man around the house some days? What motivates someone to do that? (I'm asking in all curiosity, not to be judgmental, I honestly don't get why people would want to do that.)chayanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-486014817615372892010-02-09T19:48:21.339-05:002010-02-09T19:48:21.339-05:00I think we are seeing the same thing. No need to e...I think we are seeing the same thing. No need to elaborate any further. I was just speculating on whether a taava is necassarily wrong if one values freedom. The answer would be, it depends how far you take it.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-89114240546829340632010-02-09T19:29:52.288-05:002010-02-09T19:29:52.288-05:00> Her desire for freedom was first.
I don'...<i>> Her desire for freedom was first. </i><br /><br />I don't know how you can be so sure as to what was first. She also talked about hypocrisy, a breakdown of faith, and being treated rather badly by the frum community. In any case, I don't consider wanting to be free from a repressive environment an example of being shallowly self-indulgent, which is how the "taiva" stereotype is spun. <br /><br />The various stereotypes are always meant to paint a picture that will delegitimize the person's decision. To portray the choice as irrational, impulsive, selfish, immoral, and ultimately so detrimental to the person that they will eventually regret it.<br /><br />If you can see how she is fulfilling that image, that's fine. I don't. Maybe we're both seeing what we want to see.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-77419315677632325722010-02-09T18:54:33.629-05:002010-02-09T18:54:33.629-05:00Right. And from what I am getting from the post sh...Right. And from what I am getting from the post she left for reasons that she was simple sick of others telling her what to do. I said this much earlier on. Her desire for freedom was first. That ultimately got her where she is now. She did leave for her own desires. What ever those desires ultimately became, are secondary.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-9435093722741501262010-02-09T18:45:10.572-05:002010-02-09T18:45:10.572-05:00Hyrax, just because people pursue their desires wh...Hyrax, just because people pursue their desires when they leave doesn't mean that it was the basis for their leaving in the first place. The frum stereotype in this regard is that people leave simply because they are weak and self-indulgent, and just want a chance to pursue their desires.<br /><br />As I heard it, Adrienne's story reveals much more than someone who left merely because of a petulant desire to have some fun.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-10575296340203556812010-02-09T18:21:43.540-05:002010-02-09T18:21:43.540-05:00Thank you, Da'as Hedyot and Adrienne, for the ...Thank you, Da'as Hedyot and Adrienne, for the interview. <br /><br />As for long or short, I enjoy both, but I would prefer that the long interviews be published at once (rather than in two parts).<br /><br />There are few things in this world as sexy as drag kings. I say this as a person who rarely uses the word "sexy," and who has no good reason for commenting on this portion of the interview... Except to suggest that the freedom which comes with Adrienne's OTDness allows for a kind of creative expression that most people would not think to do. In other words, the act of rethinking which accompanies the departure from Orthodoxy often results in unconventional (and, in this case sexy) outcomes. These outcomes tend to have been well-thought-out and not at all impulsive.Vashtyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12702322598899231692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-5941181201649615452010-02-09T18:07:20.863-05:002010-02-09T18:07:20.863-05:00Yellow
Out of curiousity, do you mind sharing wha...Yellow<br /><br />Out of curiousity, do you mind sharing what you told her?Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-3145658070915510002010-02-09T18:06:09.328-05:002010-02-09T18:06:09.328-05:00Sorry Hedyot
I meant ta'avot
Yellow
I am as...Sorry Hedyot<br /><br />I meant ta'avot<br /><br />Yellow<br /><br />I am assuming your BS comment was responding to my question of what hypocrisy she saw? <br /><br />>As for finding values antithetical or not....I'm sorry, this is the way WE live our lives together as man and wife..HH, like it or lump it.<br /><br />Go back and re-read my comment. It had nothing to do with you or your wife. It would be akin to me asking Recon. Judaism to accept a mehitza and them finding THAT credible.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-14214862137213309592010-02-09T17:58:35.568-05:002010-02-09T17:58:35.568-05:00Slight correction to the above post..we're in ...Slight correction to the above post..we're in the early stages of adoption proceedings.Yellow 6noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-32232226494527951532010-02-09T17:57:52.724-05:002010-02-09T17:57:52.724-05:00Interesting variety of interviewees, Hedyot. Very ...Interesting variety of interviewees, Hedyot. Very refreshing.lauranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-60635705872785927012010-02-09T17:56:40.703-05:002010-02-09T17:56:40.703-05:00Hi all,
Adrianne's husband here. HH, somethin...Hi all,<br /> Adrianne's husband here. HH, something I'd like to get off my chest. My wife is her own person, but what she does, she's always done with an understanding of the fact she is married. For the record? I am a Reform Jew who served in the US Army. I have a low tolerance for BS and I tend to be very forward. So, I am going to say it: I saw the two-faced stuff in spades..such as the "vocal and sometimes physical objection" to my marrying my wife. When we were told we couldn't have children due to a variety of factors, and told Adrianne's mother, she had to "consult her rabbi" on whether or not she could accept it as her grandchild. Sorry, but I had to call and have it out with her. <br /><br />As for finding values antithetical or not....I'm sorry, this is the way WE live our lives together as man and wife..HH, like it or lump it.Yellow 6noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-78551021752259886312010-02-09T17:46:37.219-05:002010-02-09T17:46:37.219-05:00> You don't have to be miserable and a crac...<i>> You don't have to be miserable and a crack addict to go after your toevot.</i><br /><br />HH, I can't figure out what you're talking about here. Do you mean ta'avot (desires), or toevah (abomination)?<br /><br />I've never heard about people "going after their toevot", but I have heard about them going after ta'avot.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-51978364453844724432010-02-09T17:43:04.276-05:002010-02-09T17:43:04.276-05:00I think the amish rumspringa is largely overrated....I think the amish rumspringa is largely overrated...<br /><br />In the past, the Amish had to do civil service in hospitals away from their community. BAck then, many of them left for good.<br /><br />Now, they are kept in their confined surroundings, with special schools, which makes leaving much more difficult, and they stay...rumwhat?noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-91695648774217761212010-02-09T17:35:45.290-05:002010-02-09T17:35:45.290-05:00Hedyot
I thought I answered you earlier. The conc...Hedyot<br /><br />I thought I answered you earlier. The concept is going after what Judaism considers toevah. Thats it. You don't have to be miserable and a crack addict to go after your toevot. From my experience, your examples are a bit extreme. Do you really believe some UOJ thinks ALL you do is have sex, drugs 24/7??<br /><br />Shpitz<br /><br />Of course I agree with you (at least, most of what you wrote) :)Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-52474156519845975052010-02-09T16:48:57.805-05:002010-02-09T16:48:57.805-05:00Juicy one!
Tell us more about your sexual freedo...Juicy one! <br /><br />Tell us more about your sexual freedom. I know it's a personal subject, but I think this is something that many people that choose to leave OJ have difficulties with. <br /><br />Someone that is so non-traditional in their sexuality could help to broaden horizons, though not without some fuss, to be sure. But I'd LOVE to hear more nonetheless, if you're up for the challenge that is ;)Freethinking Upstarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08303095726807967022noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-16247644701287033602010-02-09T16:30:19.106-05:002010-02-09T16:30:19.106-05:00> Certainly going OTD does not mean you become ...<i>> Certainly going OTD does not mean you become immoral. It's just intersting to read a story that oddly sounds a bit stereotypical.</i><br /><br />How is it stereotypical? Here are some of the stereotypes that the frum world spouts about those of us who leave:<br /><br />* We are deeply unhappy and unfulfilled.<br />* We have no morals.<br />* All we do with our lives is eat cheeseburgers, have sex, and do drugs.<br />* The main reason we left is because we wanted to have sex.<br />* We intensely despise religious Jews and Judaism.<br />* The whole purpose of our lives is just to make money.<br /><br />None of those seem to apply to Adrienne. What stereotypes do you think apply?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-39687609957192773592010-02-09T15:49:02.187-05:002010-02-09T15:49:02.187-05:00What IS wrong with going after those things if one...<i>What IS wrong with going after those things if one values freedom?</i><br /><br />To answer your philosophical question from a pragmatic perspective: Well, what is wrong with instant gratification and unrestrained indulgences? Do you really need a divine prohibition in order to see what is wrong? Do you need an ancient guide to judge for you quality of pleasure from quantity of pleasure? Being all about sex and cheesbergers is, quite simply Hyrax, not good. Really no fun. If say, you eat cheeseburgers day and night, it will make you very sick. You'll know what's wrong. (And God will have spoken through punishment, of course, if you prefer divine interpretation ;)<br /><br />Hyrax, freedom is the right to make choices, including the right to practice restraint. It does not mean lawlessness. Think of freedom as <i>bechirah</i>. <br /><br />What this series is demonstrating is that not everyone off the derech is self destructive or tumbling through life on impulses.Shpitzhttp://shpitzleshtible.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-72867429570746708982010-02-09T15:44:41.509-05:002010-02-09T15:44:41.509-05:00Well Hedyot, obviously, you are right. Certainly g...Well Hedyot, obviously, you are right. Certainly going OTD does not mean you become immoral. It's just intersting to read a story that oddly sounds a bit stereotypical. Of course, people leave Judaism for any number of reasons.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-29958606595509120512010-02-09T15:28:19.827-05:002010-02-09T15:28:19.827-05:00> What IS wrong with goign after those things i...<i>> What IS wrong with goign after those things if one values freedom?</i><br /><br />Valuing freedom doesn't mean that all other values disappear. Just because someone values freedom doesn't mean they don't value family, commitment, morality, and a healthy lifestyle. <br /><br />The frum world's stereotyping is always that if someone leaves frumkeit then they become indiscriminately immoral. I suppose if you think that being gay or having premarital sex or being a drag king is immoral then yes, people that pursue that have proven the frum stereotype right.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-15215819889481716022010-02-09T14:59:08.581-05:002010-02-09T14:59:08.581-05:00>We do have a sort of Rumspringa -- the beauty ...>We do have a sort of Rumspringa -- the beauty of Judaism is that there ARE many ways to be Jewish (reform, reconstructionist, in no way affiliated). Too bad the orthodox Jewish community doesn't show those options as credible and non heretical ways of life.<br /><br />Well that would not make much sense would it? Should people that promote the values of the Dec. of Independence and Constitution find the values of communism credible? The values/beliefs one wishes to promote become credit-less if you think those that are antithetical to what you hold, are acceptable.Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-3585793621139279132010-02-09T14:45:52.312-05:002010-02-09T14:45:52.312-05:00We do have a sort of Rumspringa -- the beauty of J...We do have a sort of Rumspringa -- the beauty of Judaism is that there ARE many ways to be Jewish (reform, reconstructionist, in no way affiliated). Too bad the orthodox Jewish community doesn't show those options as credible and non heretical ways of life. Good for you for moving on and discovering them on your own. And I think it's lovely that you found a synagogue you feel comfortable in (now if only I could find that...!)Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-13783593063641218532010-02-09T13:40:30.916-05:002010-02-09T13:40:30.916-05:00I didn't make that insinuation speaking about ...I didn't make that insinuation speaking about Adrienne—even though many of those activities have a lot of promiscuity in it(and 'depraved' is ultimatly subjective)— but that the frum view is about toevot. It doesn't have to be perverted to be a toevah. Sounds like from the post that she got sick of others telling her what to do and what is right or wrong. I guess my question is more philisophically: What IS wrong with goign after those things if one values freedom?Holy Hyraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17704030181702087485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-12763782646800454652010-02-09T13:29:15.239-05:002010-02-09T13:29:15.239-05:00>Burlesque? Drag Kings? Gay Pride Parades? The ...<i>>Burlesque? Drag Kings? Gay Pride Parades? The irony being you are doing exactly what you frum people say you would...</i><br /><br />HH -<br /><br />While it's true that all those things are associated with sexuality, they don't imply one bit about anyone being a sexual degenerate, depraved or promiscuous.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.com