tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post831870437900347289..comments2023-09-22T12:40:26.587-04:00Comments on Da'as Hedyot: What I've BecomeThe Hedyothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-16950233639223223622007-11-13T02:39:00.000-05:002007-11-13T02:39:00.000-05:00> i think it's something a person just has to go t...<I>> i think it's something a person just has to go through himself, instead of just accepting your word for it.</I><BR/><BR/>Probably true. My words were meant more as encouragement that it can be done than as a claim to just take my word for it.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-63918269105683121902007-11-13T02:07:00.000-05:002007-11-13T02:07:00.000-05:00This is exactly what I went through. I started ou...This is exactly what I went through. I started out admitting I didn't believe in God, but thinking that it's still a good religion (mostly b/c i hadn't been letting myself think). gradually i started respecting it less and less, until now i think it's ridiculous and wonder how i could have believed it for so long.<BR/><BR/>i had it ingrained in me that halacha is there to discipline you. so i didn't want to drop everything just because i had an excuse not to do it. but when it came to spending an hour davening just to prove i wasn't undisciplined, i wondered what i had been thinking. it's so wierd to think how rapidly i've changed just in one year. anyway, i sympathized very much with what you wrote. but i think it's something a person just has to go through himself, instead of just accepting your word for it.Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02146952879751953141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-23096197769911527732007-10-18T11:32:00.000-04:002007-10-18T11:32:00.000-04:00This has absolutely nothing to do with the discuss...This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand except that every time I find myself in the midst of a very enjoyable Seder with my chavrusa I think of this Blog and feel very sorry for those who missed out on the opportunity to "enjoy" learning. Someone once told me a story which I have come to understand. There was a "meshugane" in a Yeshiva who was found smoking on Shabbos while learning a blatt gemoroh. When questioned, he answered "what's the problem? I love to smoke and I love to learn!". To those who understand the joy of learning Torah and have left Yiddishkeit, I'd like to know if there is any parallel in the secular world.Chaim S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/04324879118951914915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-32826824226872416172007-10-13T23:14:00.000-04:002007-10-13T23:14:00.000-04:00Hasidic, you are obviously another ignoramus par e...Hasidic, you are obviously another ignoramus par excdellence...the point I was trying to make is that "fasting" on Yom Kippur is something done by a wide array of Jews...and no< they are not sentimental about Judaism...many non-Jews that I've spoken to over the years likewise see fasting as purifying, as helping achieve an altered state of conciousness...the point is that you and Hedyot and anyone else are free to eat as much as you want whenever you want...but your points of view are so self-referential...it's laughable...the Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist, etc. movements have produced some great thinkers...it's unbelievable that you are not aware of anything...start with Geiger...then move on forward LEARN SOMETHING BETTER YOURSELF KNOW THAT SMARTER PEOPLE HAVE GONE BEFORE YOU...be a little more humble...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-47999635470340582202007-10-11T12:17:00.000-04:002007-10-11T12:17:00.000-04:00Anon: what a thoughtless and narrow-minded attitud...Anon: what a thoughtless and narrow-minded attitude! <BR/><BR/>Those Jews who do fast may have good reason. But <I>you</I> didn't cite any. And despite your mouthing off about all those "great minds", you couldn't name any, let alone recite a coherent position. (And please do tell me, who decides who's a "great mind" anyway.)<BR/><BR/>And if you ask me, I'd say most non-religious Jews who fast do so for mere sentimental reasons. (At least that's the impression I get from those I've asked.) People want to feel connected to heritage and tradition, but don't want to be burdened by it every day of their lives. So what better way than doing one very difficult thing once a year? You feel like a good Jew, you've done something "big", and your conscience is free to live like a goy the rest of the year.<BR/><BR/>But some of us might just have a clear conscience without a day of meaningless self-deprivation.Hasidic Rebelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08579277373594440827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-17868245430111181342007-10-09T15:56:00.000-04:002007-10-09T15:56:00.000-04:00I find your post amusing...in the sense that it po...I find your post amusing...in the sense that it portrays you - or,I should say, betrays you - as an ignorant boor...perhaps too strong a word...but certainly ignorant...I am (still)(somewhat) Orthodox...but travel widely in non-Jewish, and non-religious Jewish circles. For Jews of any stripe, fasting on Yom Kippur is seen as a value...I'm constanly amazed by the number of totally non-practicing Jews that sacrifice greatly - even non-halachically - to fast (they aren't obligated to, and shouldn't fast,)...you have no ideas, you have read nothing, evidently, of the works of great geat minds who have struggled with these questions - I refer to non-religious giants of the mind and the spirit...it's all subjective with you...you do no reading, no research, and live life in a vacuum with no input other than what exists in your own brain...of course if Judaism doesn't speak to you, then you're free to go your own way...it's a free country, but for God's sake (well, not for His sake..) get an education...better yourself...read something other than your own blog and those of your fellow bloggers...then...maybe...maybe...you'll have something original and creative to say...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-64490267776917766382007-10-08T06:46:00.000-04:002007-10-08T06:46:00.000-04:00DHthanks for posting again, you have said eloquent...DH<BR/><BR/>thanks for posting again, you have said eloquently what many of us are going through, and it is important to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel.<BR/><BR/>i also think that your posting on frum issues is totally consistent with who you are, in other words it does not reflect a weakness or wavering of belief, rather being jewish or frum will always be a part of you in some way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-59705968504552532342007-10-07T22:28:00.000-04:002007-10-07T22:28:00.000-04:00Oppressive? Granted there are forms of Orthodoxy t...Oppressive? Granted there are forms of Orthodoxy that are hard on people but to liken all of coherent Judaism to an abusive government? Please.<BR/><BR/>"Sure I will. Just not in ways which you seem to value."<BR/><BR/>If you say so. What ways? Do tell.<BR/><BR/>"I find that to be a ridiculous line of reasoning."<BR/><BR/>I guess I explained it poorly. The point is that you are acting contrary to your expressed desire to see a continuous Jewish presence. You want others to pick up the tab.<BR/><BR/>This is different than with respect to occupation because no matter one's specialty, the give and take of society means that everyone provides a share. A more apt analogy would be between those who work and those who choose not to work.<BR/><BR/>You're probably right. Judaism can soldier on into the future without you, but it's a terrible waste for you to sit on the side wishing us good luck when who knows what you could contribute? Every loss is still a loss.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-8701073565855224972007-10-07T16:14:00.000-04:002007-10-07T16:14:00.000-04:00I think you've taken the discussion far afield fro...I think you've taken the discussion far afield from where it started off, and I’m getting kind of tired of this, but I’ll try to wrap things up.<BR/><BR/><I>> It's surely less vibrant than it would have been otherwise.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't think that's provable (maybe if there were more irreligious Jews like Michael Steinhardt, David Ben-Gurion, Andy Warhol, or Bob Dylan things would actually be more vibrant), but even if it were true, fine. Something being less vibrant than what it could be is not something that I feel has to directly affect my personal decisions.<BR/> <BR/><I>> ...when you step out of the fold you're just handing over the reigns to the more dogmatic and reactionary among us.</I><BR/><BR/>Firstly, I tried changing things from within, for a long time. It just can't happen. I only left when I recognized that they'll never change in a way which will accommodate me. More importantly, don’t you realize how crazy that argument is? You’re saying a person should remain part of a group that they find oppressive because if they leave then they’re just handing over more power to those abusive power-mongers. Do you not see the absurdity? Following that argument, Sharansky should have stayed in Communist Russia, and homosexuals should remain in hostile and repressive environments.<BR/><BR/><I>> But you won't contribute to it.</I><BR/><BR/>Sure I will. Just not in ways which you seem to value.<BR/><BR/><I>> If you wouldn't like the conclusion if everyone were to act as you were acting then something isn't right with the choices you've made.</I><BR/><BR/>I find that to be a ridiculous line of reasoning. If everyone had the experiences I did and felt about it the way I do, then I would think it absolutely right if they all reacted how I did. But I don’t think they should do that because they are not me. I’m acting based on my own personal experiences. I don’t think every Jewish person should do as I do, because not everyone feels about things as I do. I think it’s just a silly argument in general - Do you think that your career choice is invalid because you wouldn’t like how the world would look if everyone was in the same field as you? Hell, even if I was totally religious, I wouldn’t like it at all if the whole world was also religious like me.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, but I think you’re really stretching here. What’s your point anyway? That I should be more involved because if I don’t then I’m betraying the Jewish people and contributing to their demise (sorry, contributing to their “reduced vibrancy”)? Fine, ok. I don’t think that’s quite fair or accurate (everyone, even frum people, prioritize things to some degree, thereby minimizing those things with lower priorities), but even if it is true in some sense, then that’s ok with me. By choosing things other than Judaism to focus on in my life, I’m contributing to an increased vibrancy in other areas. And more importantly, I don’t feel anyone is obligated to contribute to those things which they personally don’t value as highly as other things.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-48050160745178603912007-10-07T15:29:00.000-04:002007-10-07T15:29:00.000-04:00"Did the thousands of people who intermarried in t..."Did the thousands of people who intermarried in the early 20th century stop there from being a vibrant Jewish community now?"<BR/><BR/>It's surely less vibrant than it would have been otherwise. Furthermore, when you step out of the fold you're just handing over the reigns to the more dogmatic and reactionary among us.<BR/><BR/>"No, I wouldn't like that to happen. But I don't think that my choice to do so, or thousands of people's choice like mine's, to intermarry will not prevent there being a thriving Jewish community 100 years from now."<BR/><BR/>But you won't contribute to it.<BR/><BR/>It's also a classical approach to issues to measure your actions as if everyone were to follow suit. If you wouldn't like the conclusion if everyone were to act as you were acting then something isn't right with the choices you've made.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-74252937032533386752007-10-05T00:06:00.000-04:002007-10-05T00:06:00.000-04:00"Sechel"?!Are you f*@king kidding me?!Puh-leez!"Sechel"?!<BR/><BR/>Are you f*@king kidding me?!<BR/><BR/><I>Puh-leez!</I>The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-90307249924125557232007-10-04T22:07:00.000-04:002007-10-04T22:07:00.000-04:00What you have become is a self-hating Jew who need...What you have become is a self-hating Jew who needs to prove that his past has no effect on him now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-88954884762336495202007-10-03T17:26:00.000-04:002007-10-03T17:26:00.000-04:00> ...do you care about intermarriage? Not really.>...<I>> ...do you care about intermarriage? </I><BR/><BR/>Not really.<BR/><BR/><I>> Would you be unbothered by a hypothetical wherein Jews no longer exist as an identifiable group in 100 years from now?</I><BR/><BR/>No, I wouldn't like that to happen. But I don't think that my choice to do so, or thousands of people's choice like mine's, to intermarry will not prevent there being a thriving Jewish community 100 years from now.<BR/><BR/>Did the thousands of people who intermarried in the early 20th century stop there from being a vibrant Jewish community now?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-41758002647668737232007-10-03T17:15:00.000-04:002007-10-03T17:15:00.000-04:00"It's kind of turning your perspective on it's hea..."It's kind of turning your perspective on it's head, no? You thought I was claiming I didn't care at all and would reveal that to be false by showing that I'd still want my kids to be Jewish."<BR/><BR/>I thought that was a distinct possibility, but I was more seeking clarification than any particular perspective.<BR/><BR/>To go a step further - do you care about intermarriage? Would you be unbothered by a hypothetical wherein Jews no longer exist as an identifiable group in 100 years from now?<BR/><BR/>"I guess I don't see why something that matters to me has to matter in the same way, or even at all, also to my children."<BR/><BR/>That's what a heritage is. It's power lies in its being passed through the generations and means much less when you're the last link in the chain.<BR/><BR/>I understand that many people don't see things as I do but I find it mildly amazing that people can be so nonchalant about it.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-54139375622906041242007-10-03T00:45:00.000-04:002007-10-03T00:45:00.000-04:00> ...that's what I was asking you. Do you care or ...<I>> ...that's what I was asking you. Do you care or do you not care?</I><BR/><BR/>I thought I was pretty clear when I kept saying that I do care about aspects of it. Although to be honest, I don't actually think I care too much if my kids are or aren't. I think it would be nice and make life a lot easier for everyone if they were, but I don't think it'd really matter too much in any case. I don't yet have kids so it's all speculation, but I think I'd want my kids to live a life of goodness in whatever way is genuinely meaningful to them. If they didn't care about Judaism at all and did not want to have anything to do with it, I'd probably be a bit disappointed, but I don't see myself being too choked up about it. And if they took an interest in it and wanted to pursue it seriously, I'd be happy for them too.<BR/><BR/>It's kind of turning your perspective on it's head, no? You thought I was claiming I didn't care at all and would reveal that to be false by showing that I'd still want my kids to be Jewish. But the reality is that I do care about it somewhat, but don't really care about in the way that it matters to me if my children were also Jewish.<BR/><BR/>I guess I don't see why something that matters to me has to matter in the same way, or even at all, also to my children.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-83134268065818247452007-10-03T00:23:00.000-04:002007-10-03T00:23:00.000-04:00"I think that you're putting the cart before the h..."I think that you're putting the cart before the horse. If one defines what being Jewish means (to them), and they have that in their life and in their family, then to them, their kids will be Jewish. Maybe not halachically, but that's a definition which might be irrelevant to them."<BR/><BR/>I wasn't talking about Halacha. I meant it as a meaningful Jewish identity. And I was also asking you personally whether you think what you have now is sufficient to maintain a meaningful Jewish identity.<BR/><BR/>"And if a person really doesn't care at all about Judaism, then why would they care if they're kids or grandchildren are Jewish? People want what they value, and if one doesn't value Judaism at all, I wouldn't expect them to care if their kids are Jewish or not."<BR/><BR/>Precisely - that's what I was asking you. Do you care or do you not care?<BR/><BR/>Don't answer for my sake but make sure you are honest with yourself. This can be a key decision that colors the way you are going to live your entire life.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-22297974598658063032007-10-02T23:17:00.001-04:002007-10-02T23:17:00.001-04:00David, thank you. It's heartening to know that wha...David, thank you. It's heartening to know that what I express does resonate with other people.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-28060059184715171372007-10-02T23:17:00.000-04:002007-10-02T23:17:00.000-04:00> ...it's one thing if you just don't care, but do...<I>> ...it's one thing if you just don't care, but do you want your kids to be Jewish or not? Do you want your grandchildren to be Jewish? That's hard to accomplish when you keep all of what's meaningful in Judaism at arm's length.</I><BR/><BR/>I think that you're putting the cart before the horse. If one defines what being Jewish means (to them), and they have that in their life and in their family, then to them, their kids will be Jewish. Maybe not halachically, but that's a definition which might be irrelevant to them.<BR/><BR/>And if a person really doesn't care at all about Judaism, then why would they care if they're kids or grandchildren are Jewish? People want what they value, and if one doesn't value Judaism at all, I wouldn't expect them to care if their kids are Jewish or not.<BR/><BR/><I>> ...it's one thing if you just don't care...</I><BR/><BR/>I think the phrases "don't care" or "irrelevant" cover a broad spectrum, and for most people when they use that terminology, they aren't intending it in an absolute sense, but rather something more understated than the typical "care" which people have for their faith.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-56919312675282699122007-10-02T21:56:00.000-04:002007-10-02T21:56:00.000-04:00Wow. I am an ordained Orthodox rabbi, who served a...Wow. I am an ordained Orthodox rabbi, who served as an educational administrator in an Orthodox high school, and while there, one day decided that it didn't add up. I went through much soul searching and research, and today I am living happily as person whose ethnic identity is Jewish, but I do not observe Halacha at all, as I do not believe in God. Fortunately my wife and kids have joined me in our new way of life, and we are all in agreement. It meant leaving one life behind, and starting a new one, but it was worth it.<BR/><BR/>I write this because I could have written your piece. It is astounding how you have described exactly what I feel, and the feeling is great!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-14275543596483008842007-10-02T02:30:00.000-04:002007-10-02T02:30:00.000-04:00"What is "it"? Ideas? Practices? Identity? Beliefs..."What is "it"? Ideas? Practices? Identity? Beliefs? Rituals? Customs?"<BR/><BR/>Yes? All of the above.<BR/><BR/>You can define it practically for yourself, but there's a certain critical mass made up from all those things that you need to meet in order to successfully transmit it meaningfully from one generation to the next.<BR/><BR/>Appraise yourself objectively, how well do you think you meet that criteria?<BR/><BR/>I mean, it's one thing if you just don't care, but do you want your kids to be Jewish or not? Do you want your grandchildren to be Jewish? That's hard to accomplish when you keep all of what's meaningful in Judaism at arm's length.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-61131753278456902082007-10-02T00:40:00.000-04:002007-10-02T00:40:00.000-04:00> The real point is whether you care enough about ...<I>> The real point is whether you care enough about it to see it passed onto the next generation.</I><BR/><BR/>What is "it"? Ideas? Practices? Identity? Beliefs? Rituals? Customs?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-11457180170429742172007-10-01T23:30:00.000-04:002007-10-01T23:30:00.000-04:00"What does it mean “to give up your heritage”? If ..."What does it mean “to give up your heritage”? If I still value it but don’t practice it or make it an active part of my life, am I giving up on it? Some would say so, others not."<BR/><BR/>The real point is whether you care enough about it to see it passed onto the next generation. Whether you actively reject it or simply let it die through neglect amounts to the same thing in the end.<BR/><BR/>In one sense, as I see it, one's heritage is not only about what it does for you, but that through receiving you are tasked to maintain it - if not to try and enrich it for the future. We do not own our heritage but are only stewards to see that we pay it forward in the quality in which we received it with the additional interest accrued from our generation.<BR/><BR/>Judaism holds the cumulatively acquired wisdom of centuries of Jewish thought. Not all of it is gold, but there's a lot of great stuff in Judaism if you're willing to pierce through the outer populist shell.Orthopraxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11649055168953784384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-72535380194958742032007-10-01T18:15:00.000-04:002007-10-01T18:15:00.000-04:00> But it's still that person's loss. Sure, I'd agr...<I>> But it's still that person's loss. </I><BR/><BR/>Sure, I'd agree. It's a loss in some sense. But then again, "loss" is a relative term. Only when you see something as having some significant value, do you consider not having it a loss. If a person doesn't really value Judaism at all (which is not true in my case, but is for some people), he probably wouldn't consider it a significant loss not having something he doesn't value in the first place.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-27750783832595697312007-10-01T18:01:00.000-04:002007-10-01T18:01:00.000-04:00>> Judaism has become, more or less, pretty irrele...<I>>> Judaism has become, more or less, pretty irrelevant for me.<BR/><BR/>> Come on give me a break....If it were irrelevant you wouldn't have a blog which is so heavily involved with discussing Torah and the frum world.</I><BR/><BR/>I've written 3 posts in 4 months. You really consider that heavily involved? Anyway, just because I still have strong opinions doesn't mean that I'm still very involved. But if you prefer to see it as relevant to me, it's fine too. Don't care either way.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-25567507073743191612007-10-01T16:08:00.000-04:002007-10-01T16:08:00.000-04:00>>Each one accepts the tenetThen it isn't anarchy ...>>Each one accepts the tenet<BR/><BR/>Then it isn't anarchy because they accept a common guideline. Another term for guideline or tenet is law. Using masking terminology doesnt' change the idea.<BR/><BR/>Anarchy is everyone following their own personal dictates, some good some bad... When everyone accepts a common idea then there is no difference between that and everyone accepting US law or Torah law, meaning it isn't anarchism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com