tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post8868333796565146458..comments2023-09-22T12:40:26.587-04:00Comments on Da'as Hedyot: Dispelling some myths about FootstepsThe Hedyothttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-30213070811358037722009-02-11T13:15:00.000-05:002009-02-11T13:15:00.000-05:00Anonymous, you do realize that the overwhelming ma...Anonymous, you do realize that the overwhelming majority of American Jews eat pork, right?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-83231284820363944722009-02-11T01:44:00.000-05:002009-02-11T01:44:00.000-05:00To Hedeyot, Thanks for making it clear, It is inte...To Hedeyot,<BR/><BR/> Thanks for making it clear, It is interesting to hear that Jewish organizations and Jewish people fund an organization that has events in treif restaurants that also serves pork and ham in those establishments, I was just curios cause this is something I have never ever heard of before and please don’t tell me they choose restaurants that don’t serve pork!!!...<BR/><BR/>In fact it is very logical to support anyone who wishes to get a GED and further their education that is not an Issue.<BR/><BR/> I don’t think any of the callers had a problem with Footsteps it just got heated about the trief food that is going on at footsteps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-33035347209547599552009-02-10T22:48:00.000-05:002009-02-10T22:48:00.000-05:00Oh, and another thing that seems to have been forg...Oh, and another thing that seems to have been forgotten about the interview. What about the way it ended with her brothers email? I thought that really underscored what she had been saying that she doesn't tell people how to live their lives. It really showed the lie of those who claim that she (and by extension Footsteps) is against people being religious.<BR/><BR/>1000 kefira points to the first person who can find me a chassid who was supportive of their sibling when he or she was becoming no-religious!The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-83926455334465287522009-02-10T22:28:00.000-05:002009-02-10T22:28:00.000-05:00Oh, and yes, those organizations all know exactly ...Oh, and yes, those organizations all know exactly what Footsteps does and what its goals are. They've even come to Footsteps events and met many of the participants. They're proud to support the organization and it's members.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-29545853366041834422009-02-10T22:26:00.000-05:002009-02-10T22:26:00.000-05:00> ...an organization that eats pig and Matzha.....<I>> ...an organization that eats pig and Matzha...</I><BR/><BR/>Just for the record, I know I already said it in the post, but since the canard is being repeated - This pork and matzah thing was never anything that Footsteps was associated with.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-6341631878677433522009-02-10T18:42:00.000-05:002009-02-10T18:42:00.000-05:00Do these people and organizations that support Foo...Do these people and organizations that support Footsteps KNOW or would support an organization that eats pig and Matzha or eating in restaurants that serve Bacon and Ham? I TRULY WONDER!<BR/><BR/>Here are the Orgnizaions that support footsteps(Which eats Matzah and Ham):<BR/><BR/>Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Foundation<BR/> Jewish Foundation for the Education of Women<BR/> <BR/>Alan B. Slifka Foundation<BR/> Independence Community Foundation<BR/> <BR/>Bikkurim: An Incubator for New Jewish Ideas<BR/> Chais Family Foundation<BR/> <BR/>United Way of New York City<BR/> Dobkin Family Foundation<BR/> <BR/>Natan<BR/> Buchman Foundation<BR/> <BR/>Jewish Women's Foundation of NY<BR/> SolelimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-54011248717951801382009-02-10T13:53:00.000-05:002009-02-10T13:53:00.000-05:00Amazingly enough about 4 weeks hen Zev had Ruchie ...Amazingly enough about 4 weeks hen Zev had Ruchie Frier from "bederech" on his show, he never asked if she has a non frum therapist on staff or about food.Metal headhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02738008135625168745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-60622866928093726972009-02-09T21:09:00.000-05:002009-02-09T21:09:00.000-05:00If Brenner and friends are so worried about Footst...If Brenner and friends are so worried about Footsteps influencing impressionable people, why don't they open their own centers to help these people create new lives? Then they can do it any way they choose?<BR/><BR/>I think he was pathetic, and together with his callers, made it very clear why people go to Footsteps.Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11390839345072141950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-61650015600646355382009-02-09T19:33:00.000-05:002009-02-09T19:33:00.000-05:00Okay, I didn't hear the interview and don't have t...Okay, I didn't hear the interview and don't have time to hear it now, so I'm not commenting on that. What I do want to say is that though I believe that Malkie undoubtedly established Footsteps with the simple agenda of helping those who already made the decision(and continues to abide by this agenda), it is inevitable that the Footsteps members will each initiate and push for their own subjective agendas. It's just the way organizations work. No matter how pure the initial motive, organizations tend to take on a life of their own. So what Gravitzer claims stands to reason. If one were to ask me whether it takes more courage to leave or to stay, I'd say that if one has kids, it takes more courage to stay. But that's *my* subjective opinion. Obviously, people who have left will feel exactly the opposite. Whatever the motivation--whether to justify their own actions or otherwise--they will tell you it takes courage to "take the plunge." So if you go to Footsteps, you have to accept that you'll feel the pressure. However, this is not in any way the fault of Footsteps the organization.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-17962580986965943222009-02-09T17:17:00.000-05:002009-02-09T17:17:00.000-05:00> The interviewees, on the other hand refused t...<I>> The interviewees, on the other hand refused to admit that they have an agenda, they were circumspect and purposely vague.</I><BR/><BR/>I happen to agree that it would have been better had they been more forthright, but I don't blame them entirely. The reason is that Brenner focused the conversation onto a specific issue, one that I'm sure they didn't care to discuss too much but because he kept harping on it, they had to keep saying the policy they had on it. <BR/><BR/>If the conversation would have been about “Does Footsteps help people who are trying to leave?”, Malkie and Michael would not have sounded vague in the least. They aren’t trying to hide that at all. They want as many people in the frum world to know about them as possible. But Brenner turned it into a conversation about “Does Footsteps help people actually become non-religious? (or rather, why don’t they help people back to religion?)”, and on that they kept insisting that they take no position one way or another. Which is absolutely true. So yes, it sounded like they were hiding something when they refused to just come out and say “we help people leave”, because in the context of that questioning it would have sounded like they actually encourage people to stop being frum, which they are staunchly against.<BR/><BR/><I>> There's no question that Footsteps has an agenda, that's not the problem. The problem is that they try to make to seem as if they don't.</I><BR/><BR/>Again, as to the agenda of helping people who want to leave, they are unambiguously open about it. But they are not out to get people to stop being frum (in the way that kiruv places definitely want non-frum people to become frum) and it’s not unreasonable that they don’t want people to mistakenly think that they do.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-55824188260088280252009-02-09T14:42:00.001-05:002009-02-09T14:42:00.001-05:00BHB,I should have played Bingo this week, I would ...BHB,<BR/><BR/>I should have played Bingo this week, I would have hit the jackpot. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-7488814499670505642009-02-09T14:42:00.000-05:002009-02-09T14:42:00.000-05:00Sorry, but this claim of equivalence doesn't make ...Sorry, but this claim of equivalence doesn't make sense to me.<BR/><BR/>"If people are looking to transition out of Orthodox Judaism, we are here to help them to the degree that they want our help."<BR/><BR/>...and...<BR/><BR/>"Every Jew should be Orthodox. We're going to convince you that we have the only path to real Judaism, and by virtue of heritage, you need to come this way."<BR/><BR/>These are not even closely comparable agendas. One is based on telling you what you need to do, and the other is based on helping you as you decide what to do.<BR/><BR/>Then again, I fail to see how offering Kosher and Treif food is less inclusive than offering Kosher alone, so I may just be irrevocably confused.<BR/><BR/>[Full disclosure: I have donated to and volunteered with Footsteps. The above is purely my opinion, not representative of the organization, etc, etc, etc]<BR/><BR/>[Edited slightly and reposted]Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-81805990544275215202009-02-09T12:51:00.000-05:002009-02-09T12:51:00.000-05:00> The interviewees, on the other hand refused t...> The interviewees, on the other hand refused to admit that they have an agenda, they were circumspect and purposely vague. <BR/><BR/>Bingo!<BR/><BR/>> That's certainly their perogative but being so vague made them look nefarious when the caller called in about the Matzah and Ham (I think) event which they didn't deny. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Double bingo!! That was very stupid of them. They lost all credibility after that faux pax.<BR/><BR/><BR/>>There's no question that Footsteps has an agenda, that's not the problem. <BR/><BR/>Agreed. Everyone has an agenda. They want to help people break away from their former lives. I don't see a problem with that.<BR/><BR/><BR/>>The problem is that they try to make to seem as if they don't. <BR/><BR/>Triple Bingo!!! They should just come out and say it.<BR/><BR/>>They are as slick and underhanded as the kiruv places they decry.<BR/><BR/>I don't know enough about it to agree with that. They don't seem to go around prosletizing, at least not that I'm aware of. <BR/><BR/>What I do know is that if I'd be in need of their services, I'd be mighty greatful they were around to provide it.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-55239089680951197472009-02-09T12:15:00.000-05:002009-02-09T12:15:00.000-05:00Brenner clearly has an agenda. They had to know t...Brenner clearly has an agenda. They had to know that going in. He doesn't hide it. The interviewees, on the other hand refused to admit that they have an agenda, they were circumspect and purposely vague. For instance, the whole kosher food thing that Brenner spent 16 hours on started with Jenkins saying:<BR/>"Every event we have, we serve kosher food." What he didn't say was that they make kosher food available to those who want it along side the treif food. That's certainly their perogative but being so vague made them look nefarious when the caller called in about the Matzah and Ham (I think) event which they didn't deny. <BR/><BR/>There's no question that Footsteps has an agenda, that's not the problem. The problem is that they try to make to seem as if they don't. They are as slick and underhanded as the kiruv places they decry.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-69174595579616010542009-02-09T02:57:00.000-05:002009-02-09T02:57:00.000-05:00a Frum therapist- hahahahah! I went to a Frum ther...a Frum therapist- hahahahah! I went to a Frum therapist once and all I heard was "well according to the Torah you have to do this but as a therapist I would suggest that"<BR/><BR/>Frum therapists have a frum agenda and is thus rendered useless as a therapist. (unless of course you want to stay frum, which in that case therapy is not needed in the first place, because if someone finds out....... you may have to settle lol)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-25312108998802117772009-02-09T00:48:00.000-05:002009-02-09T00:48:00.000-05:00By that logic, yes, but I don't think it too wise ...By that logic, yes, but I don't think it too wise to follow the logic of Mr. Brenner too far...The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-81903457338552399572009-02-09T00:44:00.000-05:002009-02-09T00:44:00.000-05:00But if he wants Footsteps to be "impartial", by th...But if he wants Footsteps to be "impartial", by that logic shouldn't they also include staff from a variety of religions?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-54407100899648393042009-02-08T23:50:00.000-05:002009-02-08T23:50:00.000-05:00To be fair, he did address that point (it was in o...To be fair, he did address that point (it was in one of the emails) by saying that frum groups don't ever claim to be impartial, so there's no need to present both sides of the issue. Although I'm not quite sure if pointing out that yeshivas and kiruv organizations are not objectively honest and fair really is such a great defense...The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-82048153520942795652009-02-08T23:46:00.000-05:002009-02-08T23:46:00.000-05:00So, I'm curious. Has Zev Brenner ever asked Orthod...So, I'm curious. Has Zev Brenner ever asked Orthodox groups which cater to "kids at risk" if they have a non-religious staff to provide the option for those who are considering leaving religion?Davehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04391023891253673160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-35382856415958637002009-02-08T20:17:00.000-05:002009-02-08T20:17:00.000-05:00> nobody ever says to me, "It's immora...<I>> nobody ever says to me, "It's immoral and dishonest for you to lead a double life." I just think they would respect me more if I "took the plunge" already.</I><BR/><BR/>That's what I suspected. Like I said in the post, it's difficult to maintain a fully balanced atmosphere considering all the negative experiences so many of the participants have suffered through, but it's important to keep in mind that:<BR/>a) the attitude does not at all come from the staff, or is a result of any policy of the organization,<BR/>b) the staff makes efforts to overcome it, and<BR/>c) there is no one actually directly pressuring anyone to make any changes.The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-43663302635243154632009-02-08T20:04:00.000-05:002009-02-08T20:04:00.000-05:00Hedyot, nice post. I was going to post about this ...Hedyot, nice post. I was going to post about this but you but you stole most of my thunder.Baal Haboshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12861222390091673835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-64684906110357661142009-02-08T19:59:00.000-05:002009-02-08T19:59:00.000-05:00I meant the latter. Nobody ever tells me, "Hey! Wh...I meant the latter. Nobody ever tells me, "Hey! Why do you still have a beard?" But I feel that I don't fit in with everyone else as long as I'm still (pretending to be) frum.<BR/><BR/>Also, in Footsteps there's the meme that frying out is moral, because it means you are living according to your true beliefs.<BR/><BR/>Again, nobody ever says to me, "It's immoral and dishonest for you to lead a double life." I just think they would respect me more if I "took the plunge" already.Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16020738186238078972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-3762624921184427672009-02-08T19:47:00.000-05:002009-02-08T19:47:00.000-05:00> I certainly feel pressure from the Footsteps ...<I>> I certainly feel pressure from the Footsteps participants to leave the community, but never from the staff.</I><BR/><BR/>I'm curious as to what kind of pressure you are referring to. Do you mean there is some sort of active attempt by participants to get you to choose a certain path, or are you just referring to the general attitude that some of the people there have which is overly dismissive and critical of the religious lifestyle?The Hedyothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15193083251783618457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-942435725101280052009-02-08T19:42:00.000-05:002009-02-08T19:42:00.000-05:00If your gonna go fry and you have noone els in you...If your gonna go fry and you have noone els in your group of friends that are heading in that direction then footsteps is worthwhile pursuing. Zev Brenner is frum, Frum people believe that those who aren't Frum are "less" people and not as good as those who are Frum. Therefore there is no discussion as per the open mindedness of Zev Browner.Frum No Morehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07537695532771081456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9839224.post-6712023633617833212009-02-08T19:39:00.000-05:002009-02-08T19:39:00.000-05:00Before I joined Footsteps, I did a lot of Googling...Before I joined Footsteps, I did a lot of Googling, and all I found was Malkie-is-whore-who-had-a-bad-childhood junk. One good thing about this Zev Brenner show and the ensuing discussion, is that there will now be a lot more stuff about Footsteps online. So go us! Keep this discussion going!Chaimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16020738186238078972noreply@blogger.com