Thursday, June 25, 2009

Better Know a Kofer - Shoshana

Once again, I am very excited to present a new interview for the 'Better Know a Kofer' series (see the sidebar for the other interviews). Our kofer today - a 45 year old molecular biologist who stopped being Orthodox only a year ago - tells quite a different story from our past interviewees. In fact, in some ways it's almost the exact opposite of Sara's story. Please join me in welcoming Shoshana to the blog.


Hello Shoshana, and thank you for agreeing to be interviewed. To begin, can you tell us a bit about the religious environment that you were raised in?

My background is a bit different from the other interviewees because I didn't grow up in an Orthodox home. I converted to Judaism as an adult. In fact, I was not raised in any sort of religious environment at all. My father was brought up Catholic and has a lot of negative feelings about the Catholic church. I don't know if my mother was raised with any religious upbringing; she certainly never spoke of one. When I was younger my parents did send me to Saturday morning Catholic education classes, which I think are probably the equivalent of afternoon Hebrew school. The teachers weren't very good, we didn't really learn anything, and even the nuns said the classes were a poor substitute for Catholic school. We rarely went to church and the classes ended at confirmation (age 12).

How did you get involved in Judaism?

I grew up in a predominantly Jewish suburb of Chicago and my dad was in the scrap metal business, so most of the people I knew were Jewish. I became attracted to Judaism because of them, particularly my best friend Robin. I liked the holidays, traditions and most of all the sense of being part of a community. When I got to college and began exploring different religions, I liked Judaism because I didn't have to believe in Jesus. I was never comfortable with the whole idea of Jesus.

After college, I hung around different synagogues for a couple of years. I had picked up enough Hebrew along the way that I could follow a service. For the holidays, I would usually go to a synagogue that didn't require tickets, so I never became a member anywhere. When I met my husband he belonged to a large Conservative congregation (800+ families). After he brought me as a guest on the High Holidays, the rabbi called to welcome me. The rabbi was a bit surprised that I hadn't converted, and invited me to come in and discuss it. I spent a few months studying. I had a pretty good Jewish background already, so there wasn't a lot to learn. It was during this process that I started asking fundamental questions, such as "Where did we get the Torah?" At the time, I didn't realize that that was such a politically charged question. I was disappointed that the rabbi didn't have a better answer. He told me that the Orthodox believed in Torah m'Sinai, but wasn't able to give me a coherent alternative to TMS.

So what brought you to Orthodoxy?

After about a year as a member of the Conservative synagogue, I really became dissatisfied. It was a large congregation and I didn't find it to be very welcoming or personal. I met an Aish HaTorah rabbi at a funeral and started talking to him. He invited me to attend some classes. I'm pretty sure he didn't realize I had already converted to Conservative Judaism. When it later came up, there was a very awkward conversation with his wife which ended with her suggesting that I break up with the man I would eventually marry. I don't recall who, or if anyone, suggested an Orthodox conversion, but I eventually called an Orthodox rabbi on my own to talk about converting.

My Orthodox conversion was very different from my Conservative one. I was living with my future husband at the time and obviously had to move out. I moved in with a wonderful family and lived with them for over a year. I live in a medium sized city with a small Orthodox community (100 or so shomer shabbos families). Over the years the Orthodox community has become much more yeshivish due to an influx of families from New York, but at the time, there were a handful of kollel families and the rest were BTs. Some people were incredibly welcoming, others weren't; I had a mix of good and bad experiences. I remained Orthodox for 18 years.

What was the impetus for your transition out of Orthodoxy?

My move out of Orthodoxy was due to a combination of intellectual and social factors. While I always had certain intellectual issues with some of the things the Kiruv folks said, e.g. I had some reservations about the Kuzari "proof", I was willing to push my intellectual doubts to the back of my mind in order to obtain the social benefits of being frum. Those social benefits began to decline when my son started having trouble in school. Against the advice of the school’s principal and our rabbi, my husband and I opted to pull our son out of the day school. After that, we became marginalized in the frum community - we stopped getting invitations for meals, frum kids wouldn’t associate with our son, I was virtually ignored at shul and eventually stopped going. After my husband passed away and I became a widow, I was even more marginalized.

Was it primarily the unpleasant social dynamic that was causing you to feel more distant from Judaism or were there also ideological/philosophical difficulties arising?

I think there are three parts to my answer to this question. First, there was just the general social difficulties of widows, particularly young widows. Orthodox women my age are busy with children and grandchildren; we did not have a lot of common ground. Secondly, my husband was the only person I could talk to about how I honestly felt about things. After a few years in Orthodoxy the luster began to wear off and we started to see problems in the community. We often talked about how we felt we were in the story "The Emperor's New Clothes," i.e. there were problems that everyone pretended didn't exist. Without having my husband to talk to, I found it harder to live in this kind of environment. Finally, my husband's cancer diagnosis and eventual death did cause me to have questions about my faith and belief in God and I didn't find Orthodoxy's answers satisfying. For example, shortly after my husband was diagnosed, a rabbi suggested that we have our mezzuzahs checked. I understand that the rabbi meant well, but I find it hard to believe that God would give someone cancer because their mezzuzah's weren't kosher.

When I first started looking outside of Orthodoxy, I needed to address my original question of "Where did we get the Torah?" This was the question that got me into Orthodoxy. If the Torah was from Sinai, then, at least according to my thinking, I had to follow it. When I was involved with Aish HaTorah I heard the Kuzari argument and I am now embarrassed to say that I believed it. All it took was a quick internet search to find lots of counter-arguments, perhaps not enough to convince someone that it isn't true, but at least enough to introduce doubt. I am embarrassed to say that I didn't do this research earlier and that I bought into the Kiruv arguments. I should have been more skeptical and less trusting. I feel like I got taken by a con man.

Can you highlight one of the very first ways you crossed the halachic line?

My first acts were for convenience rather than to make a statement, e.g. if I forgot to turn off my alarm before Shabbos, I would turn it off on Shabbos. My thoughts were that it was ridiculous to spend all of Shabbos listening to the alarm because I wasn’t allowed to flip the switch. Later, when I started doing more public things, such as driving, I felt guilty when I was in the frum neighborhood; if I wasn’t in the frum neighborhood, it didn’t bother me. I think the first time I drove on Shabbos was when I was out of town. My son got sick and we decided to come home early, rather than stay through the weekend. I didn’t give it a second thought when I loaded up the car and drove off on Shabbos, but I was concerned about getting home before dark and having someone see me.

How has your family reacted to the changes you've instituted in your life?

My family has always been wonderfully supportive in everything I’ve done. They didn’t object to me converting or becoming frum and they haven’t said anything about my going OTD, other than to ask if I would be joining them when they went out for dinner.

How have the Orthodox people from your past reacted? Has it affected your relationship with them in a significant way?

At this point I do not have any contact with my Orthodox friends. I have been avoiding them because I'm not ready to explain my decision to go OTD. I don't want to hurt them and I don't want to fight with them. It would be nice if they could see that I am happy and accept my decision, but I'm afraid that they won't.

What connection do you currently have to Jewish identity, religion, or culture?

I currently belong to a wonderful Jewish Renewal congregation and am actively involved.

Can you elaborate on what Jewish Renewal is?

I don't know that I'm the best person to do this, as I'm still trying to figure out what it is myself. Basically, the synagogue I attend now is very free flowing, do what feels meaningful for you. Very 60s. There is a lot of singing and talking about individual spirituality, not a lot of structure. Also a lot of emphasis on building community. Every service is different.

What is something from your religious past that you miss in your life now?

I really miss Shabbos. I always attend Shabbat services and come out feeling wonderful and refreshed, but then I get in my car, some idiot cuts me off in traffic, and the whole mood is spoiled.

Are there other aspects of shabbos which you observe besides going to services?

I try to do things that are "shabbosdik", e.g. read, meditate. I don't go shopping, do chores, check my email or do other things I would do during the week. I prefer that my son not watch television or play video games, but that's not a battle I want to fight.

How old is your son? How has he adapted to changing his lifestyle and living without halacha ruling his life?

My son is 14. He never liked being Orthodox, never fit well in the Orthodox community, so he is thrilled with all of the changes. We talk a lot about things I consider important, e.g. be honest, kind, etc. and things I don't consider important, e.g. dressing like a penguin.

Are there any behaviors or perspectives from your past religious life that are still dominant in your life now?

I like to think that being frum taught me about ethical behavior. I am still very conscious of shmiras ha lashon. In fact, I still read the Chofetz Chaim's "Lesson a Day." My husband was also very careful about what he said. When we decided to pull our son out of the day school we spent hours discussing what we would and would not tell people because we didn't want to say anything negative about the school or people involved in the school.

How do you currently view the religious community you were a part of?

Although I can understand why some OTDers might have very negative feelings about the frum world, I don’t. My son still has a lot of anger and I am trying to help him work through it so he can let go of it. I think it takes a lot of energy to be angry and I don’t want to waste energy on the people who hurt me. I miss some of my friends and being able to have some of the experiences; other people I don’t miss at all.

Do you still believe in some form of God or in some version of Judaism?

Yes, though I am still working out what it is.

What are some of the drawbacks of your decision to leave? Do you regret it at all? Is there any guilt?

As I said, I miss Shabbos. I don’t regret leaving; I think it’s one of the best decisions I ever made. If anything, I regret not leaving sooner.

Do you think that becoming frum was also a good decision?

That's a question I've given a lot of thought to. At this point, I regret becoming frum, though I do see some positive things came out of it. If I hadn't become frum I probably would not have gotten married and wouldn't have my son. Additionally, I learned a lot. When I first started going to the synagogue I attend the rabbi commented that I might be frustrated because I am far more knowledgeable than most of the membership.

Are there any particular struggles or challenges that you find especially difficult in the transition?

It has been hard losing my Orthodox friends. At some point I am going to need to talk to a few of them and let them know what's going on with me. It would be nice if they could accept my decision, but I've heard the way they talk about the synagogue I now attend, so I don't think they will.

Being OTD is still very new for me. I've landed in a Jewish Renewal synagogue, but I don't know if that's where I will stay. It's a comfortable place for me to be right now while I figure out what I believe and what I want.

What helped you get through the challenges of leaving Orthodoxy?

The people at my new synagogue have been tremendously welcoming and supportive. At first, I was afraid to tell them that I had been Orthodox, but no one has held it against me.

Can you name something significant which you are currently doing in your life, or that you’ve experienced, which would have been difficult, if not impossible, in your former life?

Not really, but I never totally conformed to the frum code of behavior anyway. I just completed my first marathon, but I would have done that anyway. I want to do some serious mountain climbing and through hike the Appalachian trail. My son’s life has been much more affected than mine. He has been in plays and traveled with the school chess team, which he wouldn’t have been able to do because of Shabbos.

What surprised you most about the world outside ultra-orthodoxy?

Nothing really, but I never totally left it. I guess the one thing that surprises me is that no one has held it against me that I used to be frum.

What led you to believe that they would?

I've heard non-frum Jews make negative statements about Orthodoxy, just as Orthodox Jews make negative statements about other movements.

What is one misconception or stereotype about ex-frum people that you’d like to correct?

That we’re all angry, lonely, bitter drug addicts. We’re not.

When you were frum, what was your reaction when you heard some of the stereotypes that were expressed by frum people about general society?

At first, when I heard some of the outrageous stereotypes I just kept quiet. During my conversion I didn't want to do or say anything that I thought would jeopardize my conversion. My husband and I would talk about things, particularly later when we started to see flaws in the Orthodox community, but I didn't discuss it with anyone else. After he died, I lost the one person I could talk to about how I honestly felt about some things which made it harder for me to stay in the Orthodox community.

How does your life now compare to when you were frum?

Much, much better.

Care to elaborate?

I think what's better is that I'm living honestly. When I was frum I felt like I couldn't always say what I was thinking or I wasn't free to disagree with things I disagree with. There was a lot of pressure to conform. Now I'm not afraid to speak up when I disagree.

Are there any societal and/or cultural experiences which have significantly shaped your worldview?

Watching my husband die of cancer has definitely changed the way I look at things. I have less tolerance for BS and I am less concerned about other people’s expectations. I refuse to live my life just "going through the motions."

How did being frum play a role in how you dealt with that ordeal?

Being frum was both helpful and not helpful during the ordeal. It was helpful in that many people in the community were tremendously supportive of my physical needs. People brought me meals, helped with rides to doctor's appointments, etc. I will always be grateful for their help. However, I did not find much psychological support. Being a caregiver is emotionally and psychologically exhausting, but the frum perspective seems to be "suck it up" because "it's a mitzvah." I also tired of people trying to link my husband's illness to a behavior, e.g. check your mezzuzahs, don't speak loshon hara, etc.

After my husband was diagnosed with lung cancer somebody called me to tell me that different ailments are associated with certain types of aveiros and lung ailments are associated with loshon hara. I'm sure the person thought she was being helpful, but the implication was that my husband's lung cancer was a punishment for speaking loshon hara. I understand that because frum people believe that everything happens for a reason they have a real need to find a cause for every bad thing that happens. But, I can't tell you how upsetting it is to be in the midst of trying to cope with a fatal illness and getting calls from people who think they have ruach hakodesh.

By the way, from my conversations with other widows I know that kind of behavior isn't limited to frum Jews. But it did kind of surprise me. A lot of frum Jews like to claim moral superiority, but when it comes to helping people in crisis, my experience with frum Jews is mixed. Some people I knew were great, but some weren't. And it was my non-Jewish neighbors who noticed that my grass needed cutting and came over and cut it.

Is there anything positive in your life that you would attribute to having gotten from the frum world?

I learned a lot about Judaism by being frum. My Hebrew is better than almost anyone I know outside of the frum world.

What’s the best thing about not being frum?

I don’t have to put up with judgmental, holier than thou attitudes.

What’s the best thing that you recall about being frum?

Shabbos. I miss the peace and calmness I used to feel on Shabbos. When I go to services now I do get into a peaceful state, but then I have to drive home and as soon as I get in traffic I get tense again. I try to create the Shabbos feeling as much as I can. Recently I started making Shabbos dinner again and then I go to services afterward (services don't start until 8) which is nice, but it's not the same.

Do you have a favorite character or incident from the Bible?

I've always been intrigued by Orpah. Even when I was frum, I wondered what it was that made Ruth stay with Naomi and Orpah return home. I wonder if it's just that she missed her family or if she saw something in Judaism that she didn't like.

If you could change one thing about the community you left, what would it be?

I would like it to be more tolerant and accepting, less judgmental. I would like people to be a little less sure of themselves and more aware of the gray areas of life.

Do you think there’s anything that the frum world could have done to keep you "on the derech"?

Not unless they were willing to change their entire mindset.

Are there any parting words you’d like to tell the frum world?

There is a lot of good in the frum world, but the frum world does not have a monopoly on goodness. The frum world is not as good as it thinks it is; the outside world is not as bad as the frum world thinks it is.


Ezzie said...

"The frum world is not as good as it thinks it is; the outside world is not as bad as the frum world thinks it is. "

I think that's an important point.

G*3 said...

Shoshana sounds like an intelligent, insightful person.
The diversity of OTDer’s stories is fascinating.

> I find it hard to believe that God would give someone cancer because their mezzuzah's weren't kosher.

Chas vsholom, God doesn’t give anyone cancer! Cancer, like all bad things, just kind of happens, due to evil forces in the world. Mezzuzos are magical amulets that protect you from those evil forces.

> At first, when I heard some of the outrageous stereotypes I just kept quiet.

Did you ever, as someone who had been part of that world, try to correct frum people’s misconceptions about the rest of the world? If so, what were their reactions?

Shalom, Cherry Hill said...

I'm terribly sorry to read of your loss of your husband; it sounds like you had a wonderful relationship, and I'm sure that he felt very lucky to have found you.

I'm MO, and pretty much always have been-- I think that I'm lucky in that I don't like to be a sheep, and don't much care about what others think. I also find a lot of self righteousness, small mindedness, and BS in the religious community-- but that just means that it's full of humans, like every other group is.

Many Orthodox feel personally insulted and threatened by people who leave, but then, look at how many liberals feel about former liberals who become conservative--it seems to be a pretty universal weakness among people.

Best wishes in finding an appropriate level and community for you and your son.


Abandoning Eden said...

just wondering- why do you think you wouldn't have gotten married/had your son if you weren't frum? From your story it seems as if you lived with your husband before becoming frum, so what do you think would have been different if you hadn't become frum?

shoshana said...

G*3: The longer I was around, the bolder I got. Eventually, I would sometimes try to correct people's misconceptions. Not all of the time, but if it was someone I knew well or the misconception was really glaring I would say something. I was usually met with either disbelief or something along the lines of "well I guess there are exceptions."

Shalom: Thank you for your kind words.

AE: My not-yet husband and I were quiet happy living together and really not thinking about kids. I was in graduate school and working insane hours; he was a lawyer and working insane hours. I don't know how long we would have gone on that way before my biological clock started going off.

yoni said...

again, this is one reason why i genuinely worry about the state of kiruv. I am vertainly against "conning" people into being frum, unless they have come to a final decision, they will not be a credit to the community.

On the other hand, i also believe firmly that any jew given the oppertunity to decide on the truth of torah, without outside influences, will be convinced of its truth, although some of their conclusions probably will be deamed heretical by the charedim. . .

the best way to let a person become frum is to let them explore the subject matter entirely on their own, or with some honest and forthcomming guidance, and then give them the frank low down on the bad parts of the community, and a commitment to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

But wait, that would defeat the goal of most kiruvers, which is to create BT's for their own collection, as a trophy instead of as helping someone learn something about themselves and about reality. thats also why most mechanchim educate people.

And that is also why this blog and its commenters exist as they are now.

Because, in effect, the frum world is neged torah, not with it.

(yes i'm a revolutionary as far as modern frumkeit is concerned.) (i'm one who's want to be heard refering to not mishing as a "modernische shtus"

yoni said...

and it should be noted that many secular scholars accept some sort of the kuzari principle with regards to yetzias mitzrayim.

they state that some sort of exodus must have happened, because otherwise it would not be so deeply embedded in the jewish consciousness.

Freethinking Upstart said...

Terrific interview. Very raw, very real.

He Who Fights Monsters said...

DH: Did you ever believe in Judaism?
S: No, I was staying for the social benefits
DH: So when the benefits went away, what did you do?
S: I left
DH: Thank you

DYS said...


Restating the Kuzari principle doesn't give it any more legs to stand on. There's wishful thinking there, no actual proof.

He Who Fights Monsters said...

There are no proofs. If there was an actual proof, everyone would read it and go "Oh". Asking for proofs isn't the way to get emunah.

Now, the whole universe is subject to the laws of physics, like the law of universal gravitation. These laws imply either

1. There is a unity of powers
2. There are no powers

This rules out idolatry or paganism, and so we can logically conclude that either monotheism or atheism is "correct".

Now, in any case, it is my belief that we have a mandate to make meaning in our lives. No one is going to come around and give you meaning. You need to do it yourself.

This is beyond belief/disbelief. This is about the kind of life we choose to live.

yoni said...

dys, that was a quotation i found in the encyclopedia britanica from about 1979 under the heading "bible" (as well as in other secular books by reputable secular authors)

go look it up yourself if you want. . .

JB said...

DH whoever you are or where you may be, I would just to say that I find tremendous satisfaction and enlightmenment from you interview series. I am a bit enviious of Shoshana, not for the misfortunes experienced in her life, but for the courage to let it hang out in plain sight of her uptight ex frum friends.. As for me at the age of 63 I still make it point to where some kind of hat or cap out in pulbic out of apprenhension of meeting up with some family memeber or old lubavitcher acquaintances.

Anonymous said...

That mezzuzos thing sounds so familiar. it's a very chabad thing to say. When I first started voicing some of my "heretical" questions, I received the unsolicited advice to be makpid on cholov yisroel. It's as if these people are just looking for a quick fix.

Yonason said...

i say move out into the boonies where everyone has no choice but to accept you. :)

i regularly ask "heretical" questions but noone looks down on me for it. :)

Anonymous said...

I was born religious and still am, but Shoshana's story resonated with me very much.

chanief said...

Thanks for yet another smart and insightful interview. Shoshana, I am sorry for the loss of your husband. I wish you a lot of luck and success in continuing to live life your way.

outsidelookingin said...

What a wonderful series of interviews! I have just finished reading them. I relate to this one most of all, being an orthodox convert and formerly religious, divorced for 10 years and w/a 15 y/o son! It would be so nice to meet you, Shoshana. God knows if anyone will see this comment so many months later.
I wish you all of the luck in the world and hope you are well and have found a community which has welcomed you in the way that you deserve.
-Liz (outsidelookingin)