Today I'm pleased to bring you an interview which will differ slightly from the previous profiles. Until now, I've only highlighted individuals who hail from strictly chareidi backgrounds. Today, we will be getting to know someone who comes from a different kind of Orthodox upbringing. Elisheva is a former Modern Orthodox Jew who grew up in the Tri-State area. She began to question her faith during her high school years. In her early twenties, she married a man from an Orthodox background and together they gradually became less and less observant until they ultimately left the Orthodox Jewish community altogether. Here is Elisheva's story.Can you describe the religious environment that you came from?
I came from a centrist Modern Orthodox home. My family were members of a local Young Israel, I attended coed Modern Orthodox day schools, studied in a Modern Orthodox seminary for a year post high school and attended Modern Orthodox summer camps throughout my life. I was also involved in youth groups such as NCSY and B'nei Akiva. My family has a "Torah U'Mada" philosophy and are very Zionistic.
What was the impetus for your transition out of that world?
My transition out of Orthodoxy had a solely intellectual basis. But I did not have any earth shattering epiphanies. Starting in high school I started to question even the basics of the "Ani Ma'amins" and stopped davening when I felt like all I was doing was faking it anyway. In college, with the help of courses in religion, political science, anthropology, psychology and philosophy, it became apparent to me that all religions were human creations and that one could lead a productive and moral life outside of a religious structure.
Did you try to reconcile these conflicts with any religious figures?
Throughout high school and especially during my year studying at a seminary in Israel I was constantly questioning my teachers and rabbis. Constantly. Some of my teachers grew so impatient with me that though I had earned a Salutatorian spot in High School for Judaic Studies based on my grades, my teachers chose to skip over me to the student ranked below me for this honor as they had concerns about my commitment to Yiddishkeit.
There was one particular rabbi in high school that had more patience for my skepticism than most. We often met one-on-one and we would talk religion and he would allow me to ask anything I wanted. He even gave me a set of books on Musar at graduation, something he didn't give any other student. I am sure his concerns for my religious future were behind the gift.
I sought out the same types of relationship with teachers and rabbis in seminary. I really wanted to believe. Life would have been much easier if I could have remained a believer. For many years I walked the walk, hoping "me'toch she' lo l'shma ba l'shma"- basically, I hoped that if I kept doing it, I would believe.
My teachers and rabbis tried. I tried. But I was always a big reader and the more I read, the more alternative ways to look at life and the world there seemed to be. I am not saying that I have all or even any of the answers, I am just saying that the Judaic version of god is no less a fairy tale to me than the FSM or the tooth fairy. Hashem is no less mythological than Zeus or Athena.
Can you highlight one of the very first ways you crossed the halachic line?
Even as a "frum" Jew, like all frum Jews, I messed up. But the first time I actively made the choice to cross a line was when I was about 21 and I had my first slice of non-kosher pizza. It was no big deal.
Were there any lines that were a big deal to cross?
I'll never forget the first time I drove on Shabbat. I had stayed at a hotel on a Friday night and there was a mistake with my reservation. They did not have space for me for Saturday night and I needed to find another hotel to stay at. It was summer and a million degrees outside. Because it was camp Visiting Day Weekend in the area, I was concerned that I would have trouble finding a place for Saturday night. I decided to get in the car and drive to look for an available hotel room for Saturday night. I wasn't a believer anymore, but I hadn't crossed that line yet. Incidentally, I stopped at an antique store on my route and when I returned to the car, I had discovered that I had locked my keys in the car. I had to call AAA from the store (these were days before cell phones). Every time I tell this story, I am asked if I wondered if god was punishing me. I didn't. And when I realized that I didn't, I knew for certain that I really didn't believe anymore.
On the other hand, I still don't eat pork or shell fish. I bit into shrimp once when having lunch with a friend. We ordered a "box lunch" which came with a variety of food. I didn't know what it was and it tasted weird. When my friend told me it was shrimp, I started to gag and had to spit it out. Some things are just still ingrained. I can't learn to think of pork or shell fish as food choices any more than I can imagine eating dog or cat.
How did you family react to your leaving?
I remember one specific day when I was about 24 and already married with a child. I had gone with my father to visit my ailing grandfather. Afterwards, I sat him down at a Dunkin' Donuts (a kosher one of course) and told him, "daddy, we (my husband and I) are not shomer shabbos." He didn't say much in response or argue with me. I don't know what he took away from that conversation and I did not bring up the status of my religious observance again and neither did he. Years later he found out from a sibling that I had met my non-frum aunt and uncle for lunch on a Shabbat when they were visiting from out of town. My father called me seemingly shocked that I would meet someone at a non-kosher resturant on a Shabbat. I was shocked that he was shocked. I thought I had made myself clear many years before that I was no longer an observant Jew and I didn't understand his reaction. This led to some intense verbal conflicts. Basically my father told me that he simply expected that "the pendulum would eventually swing the other way." He was shocked that it hadn't. After a handful of heated discussions, things quieted down.
Both my husband and I are ex-OJ Jews. We celebrate many religious holidays with our parents and siblings at their homes and do our best to be respectful of the their beliefs and practices. Our children have been raised to follow their family members' more stringent observances when we are with them as to respect their way of life. We mostly actively avoid talking about religion as it is an uncomfortable subject. I think that our families love us but are hurting because they believe that we are not living life as Hashem intended.
What connection do you currently have to Jewish identity, religion, or culture?
Though I consider myself an atheist, I am a member of a Conservative Jewish shul and send my children to a CJ day school. In shul, however, I do not participate in the services. I avoid the High Holidays but on many Shabbatot, I am a member of the "lobby minyan," which is basically a whole bunch of us who come to shul solely for the sake of community. I do not consider myself a Conservative Jew because I neither believe in the tenets of Conservative Judaism nor do I observe halacha to CJ standards.
I don't like everything that my children are taught in school. However, I am focused on the fact that they are getting a good education and being provided with an avenue to develop a solid Jewish identity and understanding of their heritage. They are learning to speak Hebrew and are being taught to love Israel, and they are being provided with a values based education. The values are certainly Judaic derived, but the school is egalitarian, includes children of gay parents and invites Jews of any denomination to attend. So the values that I value are included in the curriculum and the ones that I find aversive are (for the most part) not there.
I have mixed feelings about the fact that my children are being taught to believe in God, but I am finding that with this particular school, the benefits outweigh the discomfort I might feel on this issue.
How do you handle it when your children come home from school and want to celebrate a Jewish holiday or ceremony?
There are whole Jewish movements, such as the Reconstructionist movement, in which Jews celebrate holidays and traditional rituals but do not believe in the concept of god in the OJ sense. I don't think of myself as a representitive of any particular Jewish movement but I am no different than many of the Reconstructionists in this way. My family eats matzah on Passover, builds a sukkah for sukkot and gives Mishloach Manot on Purim. We often share Shabbat meals with friends and when we do, we light candles, make kiddush and eat challah. Like the millions of non-OJ Jews who participated in a seder this year, we do this for the sake of tradition, not halachic observance.
How do you currently view the religious community you came from?
At first it was just a place that I didn't fit into anymore and for a very long time there was no hostility at all.
I discovered the J-Blog world about 2 years ago. Since then, I have to admit, I have been exposed to a number of Orthodox people, who, when free to anonymously spout what is on their minds, have shared some thoughts and beliefs in the name of Orthodox Judaism that I have found deeply offensive. I have found some of their notions so offensive, that I am finding myself developing an "anti" point of view. I wonder sometimes if I really understood what I was being taught growing up in the Orthodox world, and I feel like I am seeing some things completely differently now that I am both an adult and an outsider.
Do you still believe in some form of God or in some version of Judaism?
No. I don't believe in God. I do believe, however, that the evolution of Judaism (like all religions) derived out of the nature of human beings to want to develop civilized societies in which prosocial behavior is promoted and anti-social behavior is discouraged. Human beings are social animals always in search of ways to successfully coexist and share resources. I have a lot of respect for where the evolution of Judaism has taken human beings and recognize that Judaism has had a major role in civilizing the modern world.
What are some of the drawbacks of your decision to leave?
I miss some of the people with whom I grew up. There has always been a part of me that found it easier to make friends with other people from MO backgrounds, because of the common culture and upbringing. That, however, has gotten easier over time.
I kept my kitchen kosher for many years. However, my family would not eat my cooking or on my dishes because I am not Shomer Shabbos. Though I accept my family's reasons, I find it painful that I can never host Shabbat, Yom Tov or even Thanksgiving at my home unless the food is ordered from a kosher place and eaten on paper. I cook for friends all the time. I wish that I could cook for my family.
I have no regrets about leaving, but I wish I had done a better job of involving my family in the process. I thought I was protecting their feelings and treating them with respect when I kept my lack of observance quiet, but I found out later that the way I went about it hurt them and they felt that I had been keeping secrets from them.
There is no guilt. Leaving OJ was the right decision for me. I am living a life that I am proud of. I try to be a good person in a humanistic sense and aside from people who might cast me off because of my lack of belief in god, I really don't think that there are too many people who would disapprove of how I lead my life. I only feel sorry that my decisions have hurt some of my family, making them wonder if they have failed in some way.
Are there any particular struggles or challenges that you find especially difficult in the transition?
I found it overwhelmingly difficult to transition and I did it a little bit at a time. When I started, I had no idea where I would land and for a while it felt like I was in some sort of free fall. For a long time, as I became less and less observant, I still socialized primarily with the OJs. The process of leaving the OJ world was very lonely and I felt lost and disconnected from what had been my whole world. I was afraid that I would never again feel like I could fit in anywhere.
And how long did it take for you to feel like you did fit in again?
When my husband and I first got married, we lived in an apartment building that can best be described as being like a YU dorm for young married couples. We stayed for 7 years while we finished graduate school, started our careers, and saved money to buy a house. We had a lot of OJ friends there and it was wonderful when we had young children to always have someone's door to knock on when the kids needed a change of scenery. We had a lot in common with the people we lived around, we were in our twenties, we had young children, we were all saving up for houses, many of us were in graduate school or in the early stages of careers and almost all of us came from MO backgrounds. It was only with regards to religious observance that we didn't fit in.
We knew a lot of what we had in the apartments was good and wanted to retain some of the positives of living in a tight knit, supportive community where there is a focus on family life. A somewhat distant cousin suggested that we look into his neighborhood and the school where he sent his children. An ex-OJ himself, he related to us not wanting to "throw out the baby with the bath water." We wanted to be a part of a close knit community as we were accustomed to. My husband felt very strongly about sending our children to a Jewish Day School but did not want an OJ one. After spending some time in our cousin's neighborhood, we decided to buy a house there. I fit in pretty well in my current community. Though many of my friends are more observant CJs than we are, in our community, there are many like us as well and there is no pressure to hide what we do and do not observe or what we believe.
Is there anything that you hope to achieve now which wouldn't have been possible when you were frum?
No. I never felt that being frum held me back from any of my dreams. I wanted to have a family. I wanted to earn a graduate degree and build a meaningful career. I wanted to be a part of a close knit community. I am fortunate to have fulfilled these dreams. All of this would have been just as possible if I had stayed in the Modern Orthodox world.
What is one misconception or stereotype about ex-frum people that you'd like to correct?
Well, there are a few that come to mind. I want people to understand that my parents, teachers, youth leaders and community did nothing "wrong." I didn't leave the frum world because I was traumatized, angry or rebellious. It was a gradual process for me and I Ieft because I lost my belief in god and no longer believed Orthodox Judaism to have a monopoly on life's "truth."
How does your life now compare to when you were frum?
It is not as different as one might expect. I dress a little differently, eat in non-kosher restaurants and am not Shomer Shabbos. But I am a family woman, involved in chesed, and am an active member of my Jewish community. I care about Jewish causes, I often have Shabbat meals with friends and share Yom Tovim with friends and family. We may drive on Friday night to get to the meal, but it still has that community building feeling. I have fewer OJ friends (though a couple of my dearest friends are practicing Orthodox Jews), but still primarily socialize with Jews.
What's the best thing about not being frum?
Being frum was never a hardship when I believed in what I was doing. When I was a believer, I had no complaints. When my beliefs changed, my way of life changed, so I guess I am just glad that I never felt trapped into continuing in an OJ life past the time that I believed it to be truth.
What's the best thing that you recall about being frum?
It was great to believe that I had all the answers to life's questions. It was comforting to have a belief that there was a purpose to my life, that there was a reason that I was here and that there was some "right" way to be.
Is there anything that provides you with purpose and meaning in life now that you no longer believe in Orthodox Judaism?
I work in a helping profession and knowing that I am making a difference in people's lives is very meaningful to me. I also found that since becoming a mother, I certainly haven't lacked for purpose. I am not really all that bothered by existential angst anymore. I just try to live my life as a good person (by Humanist definitions), live up to my responsibilities and find joy where ever I can.
Do you think there's anything that the frum world could have done to keep you "on the derech"?
No. I don't think so. My siblings remain Orthodox as did almost every one of my childhood friends. I can't point to any specific reason or something that happened or didn't happen with me that was so different. The only thing that I could imagine that could have kept me "on the derech" is if I was kept from getting a higher education. But I am not sure that would have kept me "on the derech" either.
68 comments:
A really sensible interview. There's one comment I find problematic, though.
"I discovered the J-Blog world about 2 years ago.... I have found some of their notions so offensive, that I am finding myself developing an "anti" point of view."
To me, this sounds like a giant step backward.
Wow. DH, great interview. XGH has nothing to say with this one. His only gripe is that he wishes he could guiltlessly drop Orthodoxy as well and simply send his children to the Conservative day school.
I imagine interviews like this will be empowering to those in the closet who feel that there are no options for them.
Elisheva discusses that it was difficult and lonely to make that break, but it sounds that she is living a perfectly happy life at the moment.
One question/answer that sticks with me, as a believing Jew, is:
"Is there anything that you hope to achieve now which wouldn't have been possible when you were frum?
No. I never felt that being frum held me back from any of my dreams."
Elisheva sounds like a well grounded and intelligent woman. I'd like to point out, however, that if one went by what people blog (or call in to talk radio, or write in letters to the editor) one couldn't believe in any political or religious philosophy, as every group contains it's fair share of angry and obnoxious people.
Just curious - When still frum, what was your (and your family's) perspective of the chareidi world?
-- To me, this sounds like a giant step backward. <
Backwards how? Isn't it sensible to feel negatively towards those who hold noxious opinions?
I'm so jealous of her it hurts.
Picard,
I have a chareidi uncle, my father's brother. He and his family are really good people and my parents always treated him and his family with great respect.
We would visit my great-grandfather when I was a child and he lived in Williamsburg (he was what we now call MO but lived amongst the chassidim). My parents just had us dressed to their standards when we went to visit as to be respectful.
But you have to understand, my parents are just not gossipy people. If they judge, they do so quietly.
Now that I am an adult, my dad is more open of his criticism of the chareidi community, particularly of the kollel life and the shidduch process. "Real men have jobs" is his philosophy and he thinks that the whole kollel community is really not a Jewish concept and that is not what frum Jews should be doing.
My dad is a lawyer and being able to speak Yiddish lent itself to developing a large Satmar clientele - mostly folks who owned small businesses. He would be very turned off and angry when he thought they were trying to break the law, cheat on taxes or otherwise disrespect his beloved US. He fired more than one client because of this while I was growing up. But it was a criticism of individual people, not the community.
Aside from what I said, we didn't talk about chareidim much, not at home or in school. Kinda like now, with my CJ affiliated crowd, we just don't sit around and discuss Orthodoxy. We focus on what's up and controversial in our own community.
Crying. . .
I can only imagine you say that because you are somehow stuck because of lots of very real reasons. I am so thankful that I left before I got married and had kids. It would have been so much harder if I hadn't. My heart really goes out to the stuck but for those doing it for the sake of Shalom Bayit, I greatly respect you.
I didn't make it out in time.
I find it highly unlikely that she couldn't find a good Rav to answer her difficulties, especially coming from the modern-orthodox world. The answers are out there if she had cared to look. She obviously didn't care for it, and that's where the real tragedy lies.
"I am so thankful that I left before I got married and had kids."
I thought your husband was still frum when you guys married?
And did he have his own doubts before he met you?
Frum in NY, or like many people she heard the standard answers and considered them to be not satisfactory. It is curious that you assume that she must not have been been looking. Do people in your universe never get the same set of facts and then come to different conclusions?
> It was great to believe that I had all the answers to life's questions. It was comforting to have a belief that there was a purpose to my life, that there was a reason that I was here and that there was some "right" way to be.
I don't get it. I thought you still believe in a "right" way to be, from a secular humanistic perspective. And by the way, Rabbi Soloveitchik would be very annoyed by your assertion that religious life provides a comfort and escape from the harsh reality of life. Read "The Lonely Man of Faith," which describes the existential angst of a believer.
I understand that she did look for answers, but I just think that she couldn't have really looked hard enough. We see brilliant balei tshuva all the time who come with all sorts of hard questions and find satisfactory answers, so why couldn't she? In my opinion, the torah has the answers, and those who really want to find them will do so. If you don't find the answers satisfactory, it's not because the answers are lacking, but bwcause of something else. I don't mean to be insulting (Elisheva sounds like a wonderful person), but that's how I see it.
> Rabbi Soloveitchik would be very annoyed by your assertion that religious life provides a comfort and escape from the harsh reality of life.
I'd venture to say that he'd be a bit more annoyed by her assertion that OJ isn't true. No?
Frum in NY, there are smart people who convert to pretty much every religion every day. There are smart people who become Catholic, or evangelical Protestant, or Muslim or a hundred other possibilities. The fact that there are smart people who become BTs isn't a good argument for the correctness of Orthodoxy.
I'm curious how you would respond if an OTD person said that it was clear that frumkeit was wrong and that anyone who thought otherwise was simply not looking hard enough.
Ari,
My husband was more like Orthoprax when we got together (he and I also knew each other when I was in my skirts only days and he was already on his way out - apparently still in skirts he couldn't see me as "his type").
We pretty much left the OJ community behind together. I remember when we were both crossing lines and we would compare notes. One day he had a cheese burger and we joked that we couldn't believe he did the milk and meat thing before me.
We are lucky to have remained on the same page over the years. Really lucky. He is more flexible than me, he probably could have remained Orthoprax as to not rock the boat with his family and avoid the effort of searching out a new community. If you ask him though, he is very happy with where we are, and more traditional than I am. He fasts of YK and is more agnostic than atheist. He is really the reason our kids are in Jewish dayschool.
Can you share with us if you suffered through a period of angst?
Frum in NY,
I think it is a misnomer that people who leave Orthodoxy didn't ask the right questions to the right people. I know this is hard for believers to understand when they truly believe that Torah has the answers.
I accept that people like "Frum in NY" think of my story as tragic. They believe if only I had kept searching. . .kept asking. . .I am not sure how to explain to people who are so sure of what they believe in that it just doesn't work that way. It is not like one day I said, "these rabbis are idiots, I give up." I started to view the world through a different set of lenses. I wish I could better articulate this.
Maybe one of the commenters can do a better job, because I know most people who are OTD can relate to this.
Joshua: I'm curious how you would respond if an OTD person said that it was clear that frumkeit was wrong and that anyone who thought otherwise was simply not looking hard enough.
Well said.
> I'd venture to say that he'd be a bit more annoyed by her assertion that OJ isn't true. No?
Obviously he would want her to believe in OJ, but my point was that he would consider her take on what OJ is and provides (to a believer) as a distortion. In other words, he might understand someone who simply doesn't buy into OJ, but not someone who distorts and belittles it as a blissful delusional paradise of the mind. Orthodoxy is tough, man, even (especially) for a true believer.
Elisheva should be the poster child for OJ skeptics. An intelligent person with no trauma who formerly beleived drifted away for intellectual reasons.
Frum in NY, "In my opinion, the torah has the answers."
That says it all.
XGH needs a proxy?
As for angst - I certainly suffered some but perhaps because I met my husband when I did and because it was a relatively gradual process for me, it was not as bad as for some others.
My senior year in college I went through a period of chronic stomach aches, tension headaches and severe insomnia - all anxiety induced, after I had crossed some lines that I knew would forever alter how I saw myself with regards to my religious practice. I was distancing myself from my OJ friends, and we had been a tight knit group since freshman year. There was no one I could really talk to about what was going on at the time and that made it pretty rough for me.
Since I was away at college, I could really do anything with no one looking over my shoulder and I think I scared myself not knowing if I could trust my own judgement (if that makes any sense).
Hmmm, at first I thought your lack of angst was due to the fact that your situation allowed for you to change your lifestyle without having to worry about family/friends.
But that's not really true at all. You still had to come to the decision to leave your family and friends behind and start a whole new life in a new community.
The fact that you were able to do so and don't have to rant & rave over it seems to imply to me that you were simply a well-balanced individual.
You went through the hardship of leaving the frum world, but have been able to put that behind you.
Maybe it's a matter of sucking it up and crossing the line. Maybe a sense that it's not so scary on the other side.
We find on the blogosphere, that most of this existential angst is being expressed by those with a foot in both doors.
Maybe the best answer to rid oneself of angst is to jump right in.
I guess you just have to have the courage to follow your beliefs?
Ari,
You make it sound so simple. And what you say is consistent with my personality. I am no crazy rebel or anything, but compared to many I was brought up with, I did tend to be a bit more of a risk taker and try things others wouldn't (like being the only girl on an all boys' Young Israel little league team or changing in and out of my skirts for years in order to compete in martial arts tornaments).
It really, really isn't so scary on the other side. And I know that is why so many torture themselves with all the angst. There is life outside of OJ whether you choose to still affiliate in a Jewish community (as I have) or leave it completely behind (as someone like Abandoning Eden has).
And I appreciate that you get that there is no easy way to get through disappointing my family knowing that I am causing them pain, knowing they think they failed to bring me up right. It is not easy to be shunned by lifelong friends who just couldn't "relate" to my lifestyle anymore. It is not easy to search for a new place to belong and figure out how to raise my kids without doing it the same way as it was done with you.
I am sure it is easier as an MO that went to a secular college though. Because there is less fear of the unknown when you actually know people who live life differently and are doing it in a way that you admire and can imagine yourself doing. If I had gone to Stern College (YU) or had been brought up in a chareidi household, I could only imagine it would have been much more difficult.
But yes, I suck it up and live consistent (for the most part) with my beliefs. And this week I will happily host Mother's Day brunch for my family on paper plates with food bought from the local kosher bagel store.
Mike R,
A giant step backwards in regards to living as a well-adjusted person, comfortable in one's own skin. I believe that one of the best signs that an OTD person is at peace with himself in his adopted lifestyle is when he/she no longer feels the need to (or has any interest in) bash the frum community.
Laura,
While I agree with Mike's point in that I have become more anti because I have become more and more aware of noxious ideas and behaviors that derive out of the OJ community, I do agree with your last comment.
In fact, the blogging world was quite a setback for me for a while. I had removed myself from the OJ community for the most part so there was no reason to be angry at it. But then, when I found the blogs, I became angry and agitated with some parts of the OJ world in a way that I never had been before. My husband even asked that I stay away from the blogs at one point because I was getting so angry and was getting less and less comfortable being around our OJ families and their communities.
I did stay away for a while actually. But the anger is mostly subsided and OJ is what it is. Some of the OJ ideology and practices run contrary to my sense of morality and ethics. Heck, there are many OJs out there who struggle with the contradictions themselves, whose sense of ethics and morality are not completely in synch with what their theology dictates (eg, treatment of homosexuals). There are just some irreconcilable differences, but I try to make it as much as an amicable divorce with respect to my family and friends.
Elisheva,
If you look for it, you can find stupid, hateful things from pretty much every possible position and viewpoint. Indeed, blogs by nature are more likely to have extremist viewpoints since it is rarer for a moderate to feel a need to go start a blog.
I don't think that the Orthodox blogosphere is substantially different from any other niche of the blogosphere in that regard. You'll get the stupid and the hateful and you'll also the respecting and thoughtful. Also, no matter what random people say on blogs it doesn't reflect on the opinions of other, completely uninvolved individuals(unless of course it is a group I personally dislike. If so, every single statement I see a member make must be the responsibility and belief of the whole).
Joshua,
Of course I know that intellectually. But emotionally, at first, I had some reactions and anger that I didn't even know were in me. But it also felt like I ate from a whole other tree of knowledge and I started to open my eyes more and more.
Some of what I was reading on the blogs, I started checking on and realized that these were accurate positions of the OJ community or stuff actually happening behind the scenes that I had no clue about as a child. Then I started to see it off line too in the way some family members spoke about less observant Jews and non-Jews. I went to a dinner once where my much loved sister and brother-in-law (OJs, he is an MO rabbi) were being honored. My husband and I had to brace ourselves from being rude and simply walking out when there was a speech given about the pathetic and lost lives of the Jews who are not living the OJ life. It was meant to be a speech about the wonderful work of kiruv workers, but it was so offensive to me and my husband.
Yeah, I totally understand that. And you don't want a rant from me about kiruvists as a group. Kiruv is more often than not, deceptive, condescending and nasty. If one did want to point to any hard evidence for massive problems in the way the Orthodox community views non-Orthodox Jews one could probably point to the kiruv movement as a whole.
And that's even before we get to chabad which takes the problems of the kiruv movement and multiplies them by a large scaling factor.
“In college, with the help of courses in religion, political science, anthropology, psychology and philosophy, it became apparent to me”
From my personal experience with many liberal arts academicians, I’d change the word “help” to “impediment.” That’s just me, though.
> Elisheva should be the poster child for OJ skeptics. An intelligent person with no trauma who formerly beleived drifted away for intellectual reasons.
While I understand how her journey seems more acceptable to many, the notion that her story is a 'better one' bothers me. There are many paths to this decision and just because some were more or less tumultuous or intellectual or haphazard doesn't make them any less legitimate.
Alex,
Yes, if you consider being exposed to ideas that run contrary to the religious beliefs that you were brought up with an "impediment" than you are certainly correct.
> I do not consider myself a Conservative Jew because I neither believe in the tenets of Conservative Judaism nor do I observe halacha to CJ standards… I am focused on the fact (my children) are being provided with an avenue to develop a solid Jewish identity and understanding of their heritage. >
Well, I guess there's at least /one/ tenet of theirs you believe in: that you and your children are Jewish.
Ari - if this is you on XGH:
"hey . . . no keeping secrets in the blogosphere . . .
Ari | 05.06.09 - 11:35 am | # "
HH (and a couple of others who emailed me today) know me from another blog under a different name. If you frequented the other blog, you would know me too.
Tikun Olam:
I hear what you're saying, but I found plenty of /other/ reasons to use the word "hinderance."
Laura -- >>I believe that one of the best signs that an OTD person is at peace with himself in his adopted lifestyle is when he/she no longer feels the need to (or has any interest in) bash the frum community.<<
I agree, but bashing the frum community and recognizing the negativity within it are two totally different things, aren't they? All she said was that she felt more and more negative towards them, not that she acted a certain way based on that.
I don't think it's a step backwards to just let oneself see things a certain way and feel a certain way as a result.
Elisheva,
Fantastic interview. I do find it closer to identify with the intellectual process that you went through, although I do find the intellectual transition from believer to athiest to be glossed over and lacking in detail. I too have had similar doubts about some aspects of the tenants of Judaism but I have never found the need to totally deny the belief in a creator or that the basic tenants are totally false and entirely a fiction. I still consider myself to be a "religious" person even though I do not consider all parts of "Jewish myth" on equal footing. To better understand your perspective, why was it necessary to, "look at judaisim with aithiestic glasses" what was the motivator that told you there was no creator and Torah was entirely bunk? I do realize you mentioned it was an ongoing process, but wouldn't there be something that you can rationalize on everytime you feel agnst?
Joshua, you preempted my comment. Exactly what I wanted to say, including the idea that blog commentors are generally those who feel intensely passionately about a topic, so you're apt to get a very black or white viewpoint.
Regarding the horrible parts of OJ ideology, I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd want to qualify this. Though ideology, as a general rule, dictates action, there are still many instances where a group functions differently in reality than their theoretical ideology promotes. (I wrote a guest post about this on shtreimel's blog. *plug plug*).
Here's one minor example: In official Hebrew prayers, we pray for sons. Yet in the most orthodox Jewish groups, including Hasidim, most people would rather have daughters than sons.
My point, Elisheva, is that when you look up orthodox ideology on the internet, you will not always know how that ideology translates in reality.
> My point is that when you look up orthodox ideology on the internet, you will not always know how that ideology translates in reality.
True. But sometimes I think that what you find on the internet, where people don't feel pressured to be PC, more accurately reflects the true public sentiment than what you'll ever hear people saying in real life.
I don't know, Hedyot. Most OJers care deeply about chilul Hashem, and that can be a bigger deterrent to their spouting their true opinions than any form of political correctness.
Mike R, *bash* may be a strong word. Regardless, there comes a time when every person who leaves a lifestyle should feel confident enough of her/his decision and content enough to just let the old lifestyle go. For Elisheva, who seems perfectly content with her current life (relatively speaking, of course, considering the intracies of life), to start getting riled up about OJ at this stage of the game seems counterproductive to me. In a giant way.
"While I understand how her journey seems more acceptable to many, the notion that her story is a 'better one' bothers me." - DH
What I think speaks loudest to me and the reason why I think she's a "good role model" for many OTD's on the blogosphere is that it's a clear example you don't need some life-altering moment to live a non-Orthodox lifestyle.
You don't need to fear living without the restrictions of the Orthodox community, as once you make the leap you can firgure out your new community and the like.
Obviously, everybody's personal life situation & comfortabilities will be different, but it really gave an open perspective on how one can go on after leaving the basic tenants of Orthodox Judaism.
The reason why this interview speaks louder than the one with the DH or with Gaius is b/c the lifestyles they are now living as a single male in NY seems harder to relate to for many.
The idea that one can raise a family, join a conservative shul, fit in, and still maintain a relationship with their family, and even many of their friends (especially those who already know they are OP) seems to be much more feasible and a legitimate option for those with angst.
Laura: My point, Elisheva, is that when you look up orthodox ideology on the internet, you will not always know how that ideology translates in reality.
I am not relying on the internet to teach me about Orthodoxy. I was brought up Orthodox so I do know a thing or two at least about the MO world. And secondly, I have all OJs on both sides of my family. My brother, brother-in-law and father-in-law are all MO OJ rabbis actually and make themselves very available to me when I want to understand something. And as I mentioned, a number of my closest friends are OJ too. Believe me, I am not looking up OJ on the internet. I have way better sources of information. And I am still a frequent visitor into the OJ world.
I agree with Hedyot on this one. I know one very outspoken blogger quite well offline. His opinions online are very real but would never be said in such an non-politically correct way or with such an arrogant tone as they are online with a pseudonym.
You know the old saying (I am really paraphrasing here) that you know the truth about who someone really is "b'kaaso, b'kiso v'b'koso", well I think that could also be said of people "b'monikers/pseudonyms"
Finding a supportive community where you are accepted, having the good sense to send your children to a Jewish day school and making for yourself a life that retains a significant Jewish component is for me an admirable outcome. I very much admire Elisheva and her choices. I think it a particularly happy way to resolve the problem of how to live upon leaving Orthodoxy.
"But sometimes I think that what you find on the internet, where people don't feel pressured to be PC, more accurately reflects the true public sentiment than what you'll ever hear people saying to outsiders in real life."FTFY.
Please do not comment as Anonymous! Choose a random name, please!
And what does FTFY stand for?
ej,
I understand that your comment was meant as a compliment and I appreciate it. However, I think that where I landed is one of many alternative lifestyles that are available and don't believe for one second that mine is *the* one to find.
I don't want my journey to be in any way used to delegitamize the choices others have made which are equally viable, admirable and right for them.
http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FTFY
DH, you say in your comment box that those who go by Anonymous will be edited a name by you.
I nominate "Acro-Lad" for this guy.
EJ, I generally like your comments, but this one is so not cool.
> had earned a Salutatorian spot in High School for Judaic Studies based on my grades, my teachers chose to skip over me to the student ranked below me for this honor as they had concerns about my commitment to Yiddishkeit.
AHA! So you were slighted by your teachers and that's why you were angry at the establishment, so you left OJ.
Just kidding. You lucky dog, you got out in time is right. Great interview.
Wow, great interview! It's particularly interesting because it sounds like Elisheva and I share similar histories, but when I had that one slice of not kosher pizza at age 20 it sank like a lead weight in my stomach. I could hardly finish it. Seemingly here is where our paths differ.
So, Elisheva, do you know any similarly-minded girls in their mid-20s? I could compromise with a CJ education for the kids. ;-)
Orthoprax,
I don't know any "girls" in their mid-twenties. I do some some women though ;) Truth is, I really don't, I am in my thirties and live in married with kidsville USA. Will keep my eyes open for you though. . .
Might I suggest the Upper West Side or J-Date?
Though if she is someone like me, she is ready to be out of the OJ world, not hook up with an "Orthoprax." You flexible with that too?
Elisheva I have a few questions of my own.
What do you feel about all these religions we have the world over? Do they serve any purpose or in your ideal world would it be better if all religion was wiped out?
Also which is better in your eyes; a happy delusion or a painful truth? In the sense is it better for a person to be content in believing the world is 6000 years old, or having to live through the reality that evolution is fact and that there is no divine guide here letting us know what "purpose" is?
Speaking of which, do you have an answer to the question on what is the meaning of life?
To Elisheva,
How would you accept your Son if when he is like 23 years old and decided that he wants to live alternative life style and he wants to live as a women and have a sex change, and become a transvestite?
Or if you daughter decided to become a lesbian and marry another women?
Or if your son decoded to go to Yeshiva and stop eating at your house because he feels your kitchen is not kosher enough?
J, people don't generally *decide* to become lesbians. And though I can't speak for Elisheva, I'd like to believe that if her daughter or son is gay, she would be happy if they find a partner they love and want to spend the rest of their lives with. And as far as transgendered individuals go, the only *deciding* they do is whether to have a sex-change surgery or not and whether to come out or not. A person who feels trapped in the wrong sex does not *decide* to feel this way. Perhaps you should watch The Vagina Monologues performed by a cast of all-transgendered people. It may help open your mind (and heart) a little. Or not. The world is full of narrow bigots.
Because everyone who opposes gay sx is a narrow-minded bigot.
Defen, is that a question or statement?
"It may help open your mind (and heart) a little."
My mind is open :)
" Or not. The world is full of narrow bigots."
That is so sad and I am aware of the hate and bigots.
Laura, are you representing Elisheva today?
Cause if you are, the questions were not answered.
Cheers-
Shalmo: What do you feel about all these religions we have the world over? Do they serve any purpose or in your ideal world would it be better if all religion was wiped out?
I think all religions more or less have served similar purposes over the history of human kind and differed based of the needs of different tribes and peoples across cultures and nations. They were meant as an organizing force, toward creating civilized societies. I think that if one believes that their belief system was directly dictated by a divine figure and cannot be altered or updated or adapted, it could be dangerous because there is no room for adapting to new notions, information, ideas or to the changes in the world. So I guess I would argue that religious fundamentalists are potentially dangerous depending on their belief systems. Religious moderates, when they "tolerate" some of what the fundamentalists are doing in the name of "god" can be dangerous too.
Shalmo:Also which is better in your eyes; a happy delusion or a painful truth? In the sense is it better for a person to be content in believing the world is 6000 years old, or having to live through the reality that evolution is fact and that there is no divine guide here letting us know what "purpose" is?
Speaking of which, do you have an answer to the question on what is the meaning of life?
Better? I am not sure it is better, but I do think that happy delusions can give people some level of peace. Delusions by definition have a function, to help people cope with what they can't cope with.
No, I have no answer to the meaning of life. If there is one, I don't expect to be the one to figure it out.
J: How would you accept your Son if when he is like 23 years old and decided that he wants to live alternative life style and he wants to live as a women and have a sex change, and become a transvestite?
Elisheva: There is a difference between being a transexual and being a transvestite. The first means to physically change your body via hormones and surgery to look like and function as the other sex, the second is to dress as a member of the opposite sex but retain your sexual identity.
If my son wanted to undergo a sex operation I would be concerned because I am very familiar with the research in this area (because of the professional field that I am in). Most transexuals have mental health problems and often regret it once they change to the other sex and they find it did not solve the problem in the first place. They also have a high risk for suicide and other self injurious behaviors.
If my son wanted to dress as a woman I would think it odd because it is different than what I am accustomed to.
Either way, I would love and support my child. Neither of these things would make him a bad person in my eyes or interefere with my unconditional love and acceptance for him.
J: Or if you daughter decided to become a lesbian and marry another women?
Elisheva: People do not decide to be gay. I would have no problem with my child being gay and would fully welcome her spouse 1000%. I would have no problem or concern if they wanted to have children and would hope they would (because I want grandchildren one day). We have close gay friends with children. In fact, one of my son's closest friends has 4 moms (his moms split up and are both repartnered). I am actually glad that my children are exposed to a least a little diversity in our otherwise very heterosexual, married with children, white, Jewish community.
J: Or if your son decoded to go to Yeshiva and stop eating at your house because he feels your kitchen is not kosher enough?
Elisheva: I would accomodate him like I do the rest of my family. But I wouldn't pay his yeshiva tuition any more than I would foot the bill if my child wanted to join a nunery.
This was a wonderfully inspiring read. Elisheva, I appreciate how you have taken the time to respond to many of the commentators on your story. I was able to relate to much of it and look forward to being able to be fully honest with my parents and family. I think this aspect has been the most difficult for us (my husband and I).
Also, in comment to the question posed to you about what you would do if your child decided to become OJ and study in a yeshiva, I have to say that my son deciding to become ultra-Orthodox is probably a bigger fear for me at this point than other possible outcomes (I have some time...he is only 8 months old:) I think I would fear estrangement from him. I would want him to feel fully comfortable in our home.
Miriam,
Having my children decide to become OJ later in life is not my best case scenario either.
Honesty is very freeing, even if for a time period, there is some conflict and discomfort. Good luck.
If you need any moral support, write me through Hedyot - I am sure he would pass along the email.
"Elisheva: People do not decide to be gay"
This implies that a person cannot be swayed one way or the other, as if everyone is squarely in one camp or the other. This is patently false, since many are on the fence and can be swayed.
Uggh, I feel I just hijacked the thread. Sorry 'bout that.
Elisheva,
I've come upon this interview a month after its comment section went silent, so you may not see this--but, from one ex-Orthodox person in the healing professions to another, I want to commend you on your gracious spirit. I'm sure that many of your clients/patients appreciate it and benefit from it.
I wish you continued good living.
AgnosticWriter
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